Welcome to the struggle bubble. I'm your host, Chad Cutting. and I'm your co -host, Craig Sergi. Another awesome episode lined up today. have my childhood friends, Ben and Julia and Atticus Kowalczyk. Thanks for joining us, guys. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Is this Atticus's first live event or podcast? This is definitely his first podcast and live recorded event. Yes. Aside from our Instagram stories, which he is very well known for at the moment. We're excited to have you on. Just some background. Ben and I have been friends, I think since we were five years old, going all the way back to kindergarten and maintained friendship ever since. And actually, Ben, one of the earliest ways that I knew I was going to be a decent speller was being able to spell your name and our good buddy, Louis D. John Domenico, D -I -G -I -A -N -D -O -E -N -I -C -O, being able to spell either of your names. Yes. What ancestry is Kowalczyk? It is very, very Polish. Like as Polish as you can possibly get, I think. And on your Instagram, on Beard and Broad, saw Ben, is it Ben Cooks, Ben Bakes? There's something about your dishes. Is there any Polish dish that is your specialty? I don't know if there's a... I have made pierogies before. I have. We do cabbage and noodles regularly during the winter. Sauerkraut is a staple ingredient during the cooler months. So yeah, I pierogies is probably like the most Polish, like traditional thing that I can do around the holidays. And it is like the traditional family recipe that's written on a index card that has no actual directions on it. It's, yeah, it's one of those. Can we speak Polish and read it? Write it? Perfect. a few, what my grandmother would probably call profanities, but it was like, know, Holy Mary, Mother of God, Shreti Mary, Rokoblosha is like that phrase. And that is like the dirtiest language my grandmother would have heard. Okay, we don't need Atticus to wear earmuffs on the podcast episode, right? You're not going to curse anymore in Polish? love that. I love that. on the Zabo side. What nationality is that? Hungarian. So we got a little bit of a battle when it comes to cooking. You know, there's some things that are, you know, both traditionally Hungarian and Polish, like chicken peppergosh, which mine is better than his. He makes pierogies better than me. think I make it stuffed cabbage. I make better cabbage and noodles, but you know, he makes better desserts. So it's comfortable. We're on the struggle bubble. You guys aren't supposed to agree this much. Unless there's sarcasm layered in. Just wait. It's one o 'clock in Pacific time, you're making me hungry. Let's go, it's nearly Oktoberfest as well. Yeah. The only thing I'll say on the Kołalczyk name, I was Googling the various ways to pronounce it to make sure that we weren't bastardizing it or anything like that, which we are. But there are some famous Polish soccer players, football players. So was curious, Craig, on the soccer side, where does Poland stand in the world stage? And medium to bad. I'd say that's probably like most Polish athletics could be. I wouldn't say it's the largest country in the world to produce out and out. They're one of those Eastern Bloc countries, I'd call it, where you get three or four players that can play at a certain level and then it's kind of mediocre after that. That very much, I mean, my athletic ability, I think very much aligns with my countrymen. So, that makes sense. Jeez, now there we go. There's the struggle. Well, you played high school sports throughout, Ben. I'm proud of you. You were nowhere near the athlete that Julia was. Loose quotes. Played. Yes. Well. have you guys been, so you second generation, third generation? I think my grandmother was I think the first either she was the first one born here or her parents were so I'd be what I'm fourth then Yeah, yeah, so there's long history. All in Ohio or where's the line come from? Okay. all Ohio since people have moved other places. But yeah, think the predominant ancestry was Poland to Ohio. Okay, cool. and you tried to break out of Ohio. You went to school out in California, down in San Diego. Help educate all of us. You came out there. Where was the relationship at that point in the college and where did that all get started? Yeah, between like her and I. Well, yes, I don't want to talk about an ex -girlfriend. Yes. so Joey and I went to high school together with Chad, but we were not in relationships together during high school. And so I went to, when I was trying to decide where to go to school, I had an aunt in San Diego. was like, San Diego sounds fun and warm. So I applied to safety schools in Ohio, but chose the... when I got accepted to San Diego, went there. And then once I was done in San Diego, I got a job in Los Angeles at a talent agency there. And I started working there in December of 2008, I think. And then that summer, I came home for a wedding of a mutual friend that Julie and I both knew. I was in the wedding. Julia crashed the after party of the wedding. And then that is where we like met, kind of rekindled our relationship of, hey, let's go together. You're cute. You're cute. OK, cool. And then we like stayed in touch from that weekend on. Let me pause for a second and that's your side of the story. Now, Julia, you crashed a wedding. At what point did you know that Ben is gonna be there or was that not even part of it? was, okay, it coincidence. was going to be there. We weren't talking. I mean, we really didn't talk ever before that. don't even think we were Facebook friends. it didn't even exist then. we're in the 02s now for sure. And I think you said 2008. was 2009. It was that time. starting law school. OK. So yeah. that, we crashed the after party and everybody was, you know, that was a little drunk when we got there. Sure. Including you. And yeah, we got like, everyone was, you know, talking to other people and I got stuck talking to him. So. was like, okay, yeah, you're cute, you're cute. He's in California, I'm about to stop law school, so I'm like, nothing's gonna happen to this. then I think we became Facebook friends shortly after and stayed in touch and you came home for Thanksgiving. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I think poking was still a thing back then. Yes, I think so. I don't think they got rid of it yet. They probably got rid of it. Zuckerberg making relationship happen since 2004. as they say. we've come. So you're starting law school, Julia, which is a, serious endeavor. You, you know, you want to go down that path. That's a three plus year journey to get everything situated. Ben, you're out at, what is it, Abrams studio, something like that in, in LA. Yep. And Julia, you were where? College, school? Okay. Cleveland, starting law school. Yep. And working part time as my, I started wanting to go to law school part time. I started my first semester and then I switched because I wanted to get done. I wanted to get done as quickly as possible. So I'm like, we're going to go full time. But yeah, so we had both had a lot going on. Okay. Then things are working out well long distance. Ben, you're popping back to Ohio, Julia, you're visiting California a little bit. Things get serious. It's all right, we're gonna commit this relationship. This is post law school. Ben, are you looking for apartments in San Diego, in Los Angeles? how the story goes is we were long distance this whole time, so like three and a half years or so. And we just kind of like, we're hoping it was going to work out. We're like, on, hold on, hold on. When you say long distance, are we Skype? Because we're not iPhones or are we iPhones? We were doing we did a little bit of Skype. We had a little bit Skype. It was just phone calls. It was a lot of phone calls. yeah. AOL's instant messenger like during the workday. Yeah. Yeah. No Google. Google. Yes. Like we a lot of that. Yes. Yes. A lot. Yeah. And so it came to the point where were like, OK, one of us is going to move somewhere because she was graduating law school. And I just got promoted. So now I was an assistant anymore. I was a talent agent. And I was like, well, she'll just move to LA. was like, OK. But there wasn't really a huge talk. And I think that was the big problem for us. We were just hoping it was going to work out. And I'm like, no, you have to talk about that shit. You have to really have a conversation. I had looked at apartments, I had sent her some links and some photos and stuff and then we decided on one. Great area, was like, at the time it was like $1 ,200 for a one bedroom apartment on Franklin right by a Brit Sizzling Brigade and like just outside of a busy part of Hollywood. amazing location, had a pool. And I signed the lease on a Sunday, and then Monday I got a phone call at work from her and she said she couldn't move to LA and wait to break up. Mmm, okay, so that went down like a lead balloon. give her an opportunity. Rebuttal? So yes, after you graduate law school, traditionally you take the bar exam. And that's only good for the state that you want to practice in. So I was studying Ohio law and I told, we did have a discussion about this. I wanted to take the Ohio bar exam regardless of what happened. And then if I go to California, I will take the California bar exam. California's laws are just backwards compared to every other state. Amen, sister. Amen. So I would have to do... A lot of studying. It would probably take me a year before I could take that Completely new test. So I think I had taken... Did I take the bar exam? The California one? No, no, the Ohio one. The Ohio one, yeah. Yeah, you had just taken it, I think. I think I had just taken it. It was horrible. I hated it. It was very stressful. It's a three -day event. And then I called them. Yeah, I think I came back and I said, I can't move to California. I'm not taking another bar exam ever again. We need to break up. Have a nice day. Enjoy your lunch. Hung up. Okay. How did the jump, I get the California bar exam, I've heard horror stories, that's a struggle bubble episode in and of itself to take the California bar. But it went from, I'm not moving to California, therefore we're done. Yes. That's how my brain worked. I didn't think that there's any other option. Yeah. Yeah. It was. Yeah. Yep. Yes. So Ben, you and I talked, I don't know if you remember that phone conversation of when that happened and we're talking through advice and going through that and. on, hold on. Julie, did you pass the bar? I did not pass on the first time. I had to take it again. So well, no, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. It takes like months to get the results back. So, but I didn't feel great about it. Multiple choice is where I like missed by a couple of points of passing in the multiple choice part. I, I tried that. Didn't work. No, no. It's always C, Craig, always guess C. On the bar exam, multiple choice section gives you four answers and all are correct. You just have to pick the best correct answer. yes, it's very... The bar exam doesn't actually prepare you for being a lawyer. It's a bunch of bullshit. anyways, yes. Go watch. like the opposite of being married where there's no right answer. Those are, they're all right answers, just the most right. this follow up episode about the bar being bullshit. I'm all in. Yeah. Sorry, chat. We went off. and I talk on the phone and you're trying to figure it out and Ben you're like, I'm gonna make this work. I'm gonna figure out how to make this work. And you're, hold on, Chad, you're in LA as well, then. I was in LA at the same time, in progress of moving up to the Bay Area, actually. Okay. Because this was 2000. Yeah, 2009. Yep. no, not 2009. No, it was like, 2009. No, 2009 is started law school. 2012 -ish. 2012. Yeah. memory episode of I have absolutely no idea. Anything that happened between 2006 and 2016, no idea. Anything that happened between 2020 and present day, no idea, no conception of time. no, just when kids are born. That's the only thing I roll back on. Yeah. milestone that we're gonna get to in a second. But Ben, you're gonna make this work. What's the phone call back to Julia to say, all right, what is it gonna take to make this work? It was, I think it was August when we broke up. And then we did varying degrees of like, hey, we can't like talk to each other then. And then we tried that and then it was, well, I miss you. like, well, you told me not to talk to you anymore. So I'm not going to talk to you anymore. And it was like, okay, well, let's talk. It was like, well, we can't talk about that stuff because then I miss you. was like, well, okay, then what are we supposed to talk about then? What my opening was, was that I had a bunch of her shit at my place because she had sent stuff over to kind of like get ready to move. And so I had a basically a duffel bag of her like shoes and things like that that I had to bring back home. And I was flying back for... wedding? Another wedding, yeah. It was a wedding. Yeah. So I flying back for a wedding, and I was like, fine, I'll take this fucking bag of shoes from my ex -girlfriend to this wedding. Dude, you're an Ohio boy. That's exactly right. that could have easily gone to goodwill or been put on fire, one or the other. Yeah, that Midwest guilt. And so I went to that wedding on Saturday and then the Sunday after I went to her, your mom's house. at my parents' house, yeah. And brought her shoes and just kind of, she answered the door. I set it in front of the door. And then I was like, gonna leave. And she's like, do you want to come in? was like, yeah. And so that was door open. literally. And so we talked, you know, we were just kind of watching a movie and trying not to talk but talking. And then through the course of that day and evening, I was like, you know, I can just move back here. She's like, no, you can't. I was like, yeah, can. Why not? People change careers all the time. I'll find something here. I like my job and I like my boss, but I love you. I will move back here for you. And so that was kind of like the deciding point. That's a pretty big like LA promotion, find the apartment, kind of live in the LA life, if you want to call it that. That's pretty balls up. could have just went up in flames and not worked at all. It could have been a very bad decision. But also, I would have had to get rid of the apartment because I couldn't afford it by myself. And probably things could have worked out. But no. I loved her. That was my priority. And so was going to make it happen. And so that was in October. And then I... wasn't going to move back until like May because you were, I forget what the reasoning was, because of my work. It like just worked out better because it was like a very busy time. I didn't want to abandon my boss at the time because she was great. I still keep in touch with her. And so was like, okay, well, I'm going to try and work out to like still keep working until like May and then I'll move back during summer. And so that's what happened. And so I moved back and then we got a shitty duplex in Lakewood and I was trying to figure out a job here. and it was gonna be one of two ways it gonna be, one, you have, wow, what is this crazy background you have of going to college in San Diego and then working for a talent agency and then you're a talent agent and this can apply to so many different areas, tell me more, or I have no idea what the hell that job is so I don't know how to talk to you. And it was. I love that. So you're at what age at that point? I was 20... 24? 25? 26? your memory hold at this point. So 12 years ago, so 12 minus whatever you are now, Ben, which I presume, yeah. the cusp of 30, which at that point you're like, my god, I'm starting over at 30. that's kind of where I was going because we have a lot of friends that reach out and again why we started this was like, shit, I'm four tear but I actually think I'm still 23 in my own head. But the gray hairs tell me something different. How do I restart, reset, realign, you know, all the what if, why, maybe is, whatevers. So at 30 you've gone, okay, this is a pretty, mean, talent agent for people listening that aren't in the Bay Area or West Coast. Talent agent in the Hollywood, like you can, it's a big job. I mean, it's very competitive. But so what was your thought process there then like, shit, okay, I've committed to Julia now. I can live in my mom and dad's basement or a shitty duplex, you know, whatever you wanna do. So where did you go with that reset button? Was it network connections? Like, hey, this is what I do in LA, like. I'm not trying to be a big dick, but it's kind of a big job. What can I do in Ohio? There is a child literally on your screen that is listening to this, Craig. Can we take it easy? It's going to really good. His Polish is going to be dialed in when he gets older. to three years before he starts, he starts picking up on the, on the very rampant swearing that goes on in our house. So. the Polish swearing that's going on over there. so I tried everything like I tried to network there was a Cleveland Film Commission here that I tried to get in with but like they weren't hiring anything this is at the time when a lot of like the Marvel stuff and like big budget action movies were being filmed in Cleveland's it's cheaper from the tax incentives and that was that wasn't going anywhere and I actually I got a job with There was two talent agencies in Cleveland and I got a job at one of them and it was awesome I worked there for like nine months or so. It was all like booking actors in like crappy local commercials or like industrial videos like the like training videos that a company would use. It was stuff like that. it's terrible. And then... I'm just picturing from friends, right? Joey's talent agent, Estelle, just trying to get him. The kid talented for Liz Lemon and 30 Rock where he has her and then like pets. Yeah, that was me. was you. Did you book anybody a role or did you not stay long enough for that? I did. mean, it was all like incoming like, hey, we need this voiceover actor. you, but they don't tell you anything else. They're just like, hey, a voiceover actor that's like in their 40s and females. Like, okay, well bring in these 40 year old women that we have to record this one line commercial. It's like, that was your day. You like email all these people and record 40 of these people doing the same line. It was just terrible. And so I did that for a bit and then I started to think, okay, what is like, what are, what am I like interested in as like a hobby? And I was making beer a lot at that point as a hobby. And so I saw that there was a local brewery opening up soon in Cleveland that was going to do this kind of a very interesting idea of like working with the homebrew community in Cleveland. That was big at the time. And then kind of help foster that community through distribution of their product. I was like, it sounds great. And so I started working for that company. And I worked there, I was one of the first employees, worked my way up from just a bartender to managing all the salespeople in Cleveland, which is our biggest market. And then that turned. bad very quickly after like the third year. Just not a good work environment, just a pretty like kind of toxic way the guy was running the place. And so then from that, so that was my second career essentially that brewery. then I had friends that worked for the e -book company Overdrive and always said how great a place to work it was. And so I applied there. And then after about four months of waiting and interviewing, I got a job there. And I've been there for five years now. This is my third career since I turned 25, essentially. And did you get the same advice that I got of don't change careers? You should have the same job for the rest of your life from your family. One of the episodes I was listening as I was doing my homework for this, I remember you talking about that and I... Absolutely. And I got some feedback for you guys that I'll share later. But... And that's all the time we have today, folks. But yeah, don't know if I remember that being a specific piece of advice, but that was the feeling. I don't know if it was just our area too, because. Yeah. Yeah. is. it's like you get your job after college and then you stay there until you retire because you have to build up equity in the job and you know, like build up your 401k and and that's it and if you don't find your job by the time you're you know 25 30 years old then you're screwed because then you you lost out on possible money for yourself. So yeah, very different approach than what I did it sounds like you were able to figure out what mattered to you. I you talk about a toxic environment. Some people don't know what a toxic environment looks like because it's all they've ever experienced. You were able to see a few jobs and have the network to understand what you wanted and didn't want out of a career. And we're able to identify that pretty easily when it turned the wrong way. Yeah. And then Julia, at the same time, what were you doing? Were you practicing law at that point? Yes, so I had worked for a couple different law firms because I really didn't know what type of lawyer I wanted to be and a little background my dad's a lawyer but he was a lawyer. He's not the reason I wanted to become a lawyer but because I kind of decided that later on like after college. I think at that time I was working at a divorce firm and I thought that's what I really wanted to do, family law, and I absolutely hated it immediately. It's like it was, we'd be working on these cases and we'd have a lot of wealthy clients who were just fighting, you know, with their soon to be ex spouse and like my concern is always about the kids, but it's like no one gives a crap about these kids. We got to fight about these IRAs and pensions and things like that. So on. the road trip when we moved him from LA to Cleveland, that's when I decided I'm going to quit that job and I'm going to call my dad and be like, I want to work with you because the type of law he primarily did. Well, he was a city prosecutor and then at his private firm, he was, he was doing estate planning and probate. So planning for your death and then handling your death, your estate after you die. And I thought that was the most boring thing in the entire world. I never wanted to do it. And then I was like, that sounds lovely. dealing with old people and then planning for it. It's all paperwork and I didn't really want to be in a courtroom litigating. I always knew that and family laws, a lot of litigating and stuff. So we came back from the road trip and I told him, he's like, I'm waiting for you to ask me, of course, like waiting for you to come work with me. So then I made that transition. I've been doing that type of law ever since. That's, it's great to hear you say that on the pressure side that you do, you don't, didn't feel the pressure to become an attorney because he was, and it sounds like your dad, you know, waited you out, supported you at, know, as he could, but was always there as that, as that safety net is, you know, all parents, which is refreshing because we see it a lot in the other direction where, Hey, you're going to go do this because this is best for you. We see it in sports out here. We see it in school and then, you into the profession. that's, that's refreshing. So you get into that mindset, you're out, you're practicing at a new firm, Ben, you're in a good place mentally. When did the family planning for you start coming out of, we're in a good spot, it's time to start thinking about kids? We got engaged when I was at the brewery that I worked at. And we got married when I was there also. going into, thank you very much. you. Show Craig pictures. Yeah. I I will. I wear suspenders. when we were kind of heading towards, we're gonna get engaged, we're gonna get married, and we started kind of like loosely talking like, do we want kids? And it was just one of those things where like, well like, I don't know, like maybe yes, maybe no, like let's, we know we wanna get married, we know we wanna. on, I see a theme here. So when you say loosely talking, so loosely talking, are we gonna move to LA? That one blew up. And now we're back on loosely talking about, do we wanna bring a child into this world? Okay, maybe we tighten up the loose talking side a little bit. So we got married and then we got to a point where we both we knew that we were going to want a kid when we wanted to have a kid like it was just we like we were at such a good spot in our relationship at that point like because we had to communicate through everything like when I moved here I didn't have a good job for like two years maybe. And so we had to like work through a lot and like figure out okay is this really what we want. And then when I was at you know the crappy jobs I was at it was okay do I leave what does that mean for us like do we have enough money to do this if I move there's a chance that you know this doesn't work out. And so there was a lot of just communication during those periods where we felt very comfortable in whatever's gonna happen next, like we're gonna talk about it. So if you want a kid, you're gonna say it. If I want a kid, I'm gonna say it. And so we got to a point where baby fever just struck really hard, kind of for both of us, because our friends, especially your close friends, started having kids and then we just kind of like looked at each other at some point and were like, I don't wanna have a kid. It's okay, well let's try to have a kid. So we collectively have How many years of Catholic schooling between us? Like 30 some years total. I I went Catholic school from preschool through my college was Catholic. Yeah. that is. Yeah. So almost 30 years of Catholic schooling. They don't necessarily tell you through that that having a child can be difficult. No. You know, basically you. the opposite of you better stay away from anything. someone, you were getting them pregnant. And so that's not what happened for us. We did not kiss each other and get pregnant. And so after about a year, we realized, OK, this is not working. So we called a doctor, went to see a fertility specialist, and then take it from here, because this early part, you are. know by the way. Yeah, so that was like 2019, no 2020 is when we saw medical intervention. Yeah. Like right during the pandemic. we met with the doctor and she ordered every single test for both of us to see what the issue was. And we, that took a couple months. Your tests were less invasive than mine. Mine, some of them were rough. Yeah, the theme of this is the - male side of it is less invasive the whole time. Yes. Yeah. And we at that point, after all the tests, our doctor never reached back out to us. And I was like, I want a different doctor because she ordered these tests and never followed up. So we got the results, but just never like sent into our my chart. But not read them other than says good. So we got with this doctor, same department at the Cleveland Clinic, who all of our friends that we talked to used. And she was amazing. like you guys are perfectly healthy. Everything's perfect. Like Julia, you have like the eggs of like a 20 year old. Ben has like super sperm. There's no reason that this shouldn't be working. So you have unexplained infertility, meaning we don't know what's going on. Yeah, which good because nothing's wrong with us. But bad. from like put it on a bumper sticker to wait a second. Yep, yep. then yeah, so we were frustrated. We're like if something is wrong, then we would maybe have an answer on how to fix it and get to our end goal. So... That was the whole of like 2020. think in 2021 we started what was called IUIs and that's where, am I in any drugs for that? No. I don't think so. They take his sperm and just with a catheter put it directly to the egg to try to fertilize it. It's real quick in office procedure and then you wait two weeks to see if you're pregnant. So At that time we were paying two out of pocket. We had no insurance coverage for any of the fertility stuff. Most health insurance does not cover fertility. So what was good about our doctors and our team is a lot of, besides the actual procedures, like tests and stuff, they would try to get covered with different codes and stuff. So it wasn't too bad, but the actual procedures are just crazy expensive. So we did three IUIs. Are they trying to go sequentially at this point of let's figure out like easiest path, the hardest path? And they're communicating with you of like what's going on, not like that first doctor of like shrug? And a lot of, the nurses are like the ones you're really communicating with and they were great. And you kind of get like one or two that are assigned to you throughout this whole process. Like we had the same nurses, like two nurses for the whole, like three years we were doing this. but yeah, so we did a couple IUIs. I think after the second IUI had a chemical pregnancy, which is just a very, very early miscarriage. and then we did another IUI and then for the fourth one, we did what was called supra ovulation. So. loaded me up with drugs you would take for IVF and instead of doing like removing my eggs and fertilizing them outside of me they just did the IUI at the end. I'm sorry. it? Listening to his origin story. Yes. So that those four failed and we had to spend thousands of dollars on that so our doctor was like if you're ready for IVF that would be the next step and quickly do know the results in those as they do in the IE eyes? Valorize two weeks. Two weeks. Two Two weeks. So typical of like IVF or pregnancy if, you know, if you were doing a natural lay conception, it would be, it should be two weeks. What is the stress level there for both of you though? Because you start off like, all right, we're being told nothing's wrong. And then we're being told, okay, we can do this simple thing. It's not so simple, but right, in office. And then you wait the first two weeks and now you've said you've done it multiple times. When does the stress factor start to creep in? It's almost immediate. Yeah. Especially for you, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I have really bad anxiety and managing that with, you know, anxiety drugs and therapy and stuff like that. But like, there's nothing that can help you. with that two weeks, those two weeks are always the long, like the longest two weeks ever. Yeah. And I'm naturally like a pretty positive person. Like I always look at like, well, we'll figure this out. Or like, you know, this is going to be OK. We just need to figure out like why or figure out how to fix it. but I'm also very empathetic and so to see her going through this stress and this like both mentally and physically was horrible and so I reached a point after that that's superobulation before we started IVF where I just like kind of hit a wall like I was very I was very positive person through the whole thing I was like hey this is gonna work we just need to like stick with it like well you know this is gonna happen for us and then after that I was like fuck I don't know what we're gonna do so I needed I went to see my doctor and I I'd asked for a prescription for Zoloft so was like this is not I'm not the person I was before all of this so I need some help and that helped out a lot so For anyone that listens to this that is going to like go down this path or is going down this path or knows something that is, the mental health part of it is huge. I mean being able to manage that and knowing when to ask for help, whatever that help, whatever form that help may take is definitely a huge part of it. And you said you started in 2019. Yeah, so we started trying to conceive in 2019. saw the doctor started the doctor stuff in 2020. So you're through, so you're already a year deep trying to do natural and et cetera. And then, you know, I'm not going to guesstimate age here, but we're probably still under one, right? And we're at the end of, well, yeah, nearly at the end of 2024. So you've still got a three, three to four year journey since yes, we're going to try to where you are today. Holy shit. That's a long time. know, after like 35, that's like a geriatric pregnancy. So before we started that, was before 35. I mean, yeah, because I had him at 38. You had just turned 38. I just turned 38 when I gave birth. So 38, like what? Seven days prior. Yeah, like a week before he's born. Yeah. Horrible. There's there's not enough for them to go through calling a geriatric pregnancy. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, let's step through that. You went through that, you go through IVF at that point. IVF we started in 2022. did the first part of IVF is an egg retrieval. So they, and it's truly the worst part, at least for me, I thought with IVF, they load you up on drugs. It's a lot of injections, different injections. Prior to that retrieval, they load you up on drugs for months. They're trying to get you to produce as many eggs as possible. And cause I think what the standard eggs a woman produces only a couple, I think. And then she loses each month, I think. I don't know. One gets released to possibly get fertilized. And so the drugs they're injecting in you are trying to get you to release multiple. And so it is a shot in the abdomen and a shot in the upper buttock area every single day. And then estrogen. Every day. every day for a while for what like 10 days well that was the first set of maybe two weeks it was either two weeks or 10 days and then you go in the shots on the airplane. think the Instagram summary has been given in the galley. You can't miss a day. the egg retrieval, you're put under for that. it's done at the hospital, but it's just like a 15 minute procedure where they remove the eggs and this is a lot. think the first egg retrieval was out of pocket. Yes. A second, I think the first one or two rounds of IBF was out of pocket and then he had some fertility coverage. Yes. Yes. Okay. So we did the egg retrieval, we had 20 eggs. So imagine like we're supposed, a woman's supposed to like lose one egg a month and then they take 20 out of me. So that's why I feel so terrible. Like your body is just, you feel horrible. It's not supposed to do that. You feel everything. You're swollen, you hurt, you're bruised. It's, it's a nightmare. So we had 20 eggs and then I forget, we ended up with two viable embryos. So what they do is they take the eggs and they start fertilizing them and they call you every day for five days. to tell you the status. each time they call you, the number goes down and down and down. Which one's survival? It's horrible. And it's the, I forget their role. It's like the scientist who's mixing in lab person who calls, who's not a doctor, who doesn't have any, but they don't have to have any bedside magic. Yes. Yes. Yes. So it was like, well. hey, 20's now 17. Call you tomorrow. Have a great day. That sounds fun. Now on top of this, you're both still working at the time. So you are going through this privately and then getting that news and then expected to put a full day's worth of effort into work. How? How do you compartmentalize? It's very tough. Like, thankfully, at this point, I had started at the current company I'm at right now. And I can't imagine working for another company that's as understanding and accommodating to something like this. Because this was, what was this? This was still in the heavy stages of COVID. so this was, yeah. So I wasn't, I don't think I was back in the office at this point yet, but we could have been hybrid. So we could have, had to go in the office like, you know, two days a week or something like that. But there were weeks where like I couldn't, we couldn't leave the fucking house. We weren't gonna do anything. And like my bosses were very understanding of that. So like they were kept up to date with kind of like, you know, hey, just so you know, this is what I'm going through. And so I'm gonna work, like I'm gonna give you my 40 hours, but like I can't, I don't have the capacity to do anything past that. And I might need to just do stuff at home for a while. And they were very understanding about it. I, at the time, I, in addition to the probate and estate planning, I was doing court appointments in a juvenile court. So I was representing like, juvenile delinquents, so kids who commit crimes. And then I was a guardian ad litem in children's service cases. So parents who lose their kids because of drugs, alcohol, bad things, I was representing those kids. And that took a toll on me. I, my last case I had, before I was like, I can't do this anymore. was a mom who had 11 kids. And she didn't have an alcohol problem. She didn't have a drug problem. She was working She just couldn't take care of 11 kids was pregnant with her 12. So I was like My emotions were bad. I mean there are times I would like start crying and on zoom and like have to like turn the video off so Everyone at court was really awesome, know, they were like I didn't tell me I need to step away This is why I didn't need to give him a reason but I had done so many cases and everybody knew me and you know I had like a long history with the court and stuff says like not for me I I haven't gone back and I'm not going go back to those cases because it was so, it's so hard. Very, very hard. There's the energy just on top of that as is, but you're actively trying to have a child going through all of the pain, the suffering, the mental anguish to then have to sit through people that aren't doing everything they can for the children they have. That's got to be gut wrenching. Very. Yes. was truly one the hardest things that I've been through, you've been through. Yeah. It was rough. 12 kids? What the hell? Where does she live? Hotel? Yeah, I mean she should have not she was not in a house that was big enough for her and the kids it was it was crazy Was the first one taken care of the last one? Jesus. When she was at work, oldest who were like, think 14 was the oldest. I mean, you have like babies and toddlers, multiple of them and getting out of the house and yeah, it was bad. That's cringe. we've got all that going on. Now we're at a three year, four year journey. Was there a moment where you both looked at each other and said, enough, is too much? No, but we both agreed if it did get to that point, we would tell each other and we were working in therapy together through it. And you know, we never had that moment. Like I, I wanted him to be a dad. Like that was my goal. Like I was like, I want to be a mom, but he's going to be the best dad ever. And I'm like, I want to get to that goal. And I'm very competitive, competitive with myself, former athlete. Like I still have that mentality. So I'm like, we're going to figure it out away. We're going to keep doing this as long as we financially. physically can and that's kind of how it was. But we would check in with each other all the time. All, even not in therapy, just like on the weekend, like or after a procedure, after we get a phone call. And we just had that constant communication. Yeah, yeah, that was that was kind of the other big piece of this. if you're going to go through this, save your money because it's expensive. But also you have to just keep talking because at any given point, like your idea or your outlook can change. And ours, a word, our outlooks were aligned the whole time. You know, there were points where I think towards like close to the end before we got pregnant with this little guy that we were like, you know, like, shit, this might not work. Like we had, you know, when we didn't say like, okay, at what point will we be okay with it not working? But it was just like, you know, people would talk to us, you know, with the best intentions. I know, buddy. With the best intentions, like, hey, it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. We talk to each other and say, like, you know, that sucks to hear because it might not happen. Like, it might not. Yeah. And IUI is not a guarantee. IVF is not a guarantee. And Ember is not a baby. Not to get all political, but it's not a fucking baby. so yeah, that was kind of like, I think towards the latter IVFs, we were... Cautiously optimistic yeah rather than just being like optimistic in the beginning and then in the middle we were like Why are we doing this kind of like this is like are we just wasting money and then we we got to a point I think it was after interestingly after the miscarriage that we were obviously devastated because we had a egg retrieval, two transfers, both the transfers didn't work. We had another egg retrieval and we got five embryos from that egg retrieval, so two and a half times the previous one. And then that third transfer. the first transfer, like the second retrieval, that worked. And Julia got pregnant. And that lasted what, 12 weeks? 12 weeks. 12 weeks. We were in Napa for like kind of a celebratory trip and a kind of like a quasi baby moon, early baby moon. And then she miscarried on that trip. So we got back, ended that vacation early, got back home, stayed in our room for probably like three days straight, didn't leave, just ordered food and like went down and got it and came back upstairs. And then eventually, you know, started talking about, you know, when we'd be ready. And I think like before we got home, I think you said like, hey, I'm ready to do another transfer. I was like, Jesus Christ, do you want to take a break? that's Bose. Exactly, yeah. That's why I love her. That's why I love her, yeah. And so the moment we could, when we talked to our doctor, it was a bit because your body has to kind of recuperate from that. But we did a third transfer. That didn't work. then for whatever reason, like, I had, we had two embryos left. Or no, three. No, we had three. We had three. And I, in particular, like, had a positive outlook about, like, the rest of them. Not necessarily like, our next transfer is going to work, but just like a... Like I am at peace and I didn't necessarily like talk to her about this But like I am at peace with us like if this doesn't work like we've been through fucking so much That like I can just spend the rest of my life with her and be completely fine Like we we have done so much through this and this is the hardest thing we'll ever ever have to go through and no matter How we make it through it like this is the hardest thing we'll ever go through in our lives Like this moment is it like everything else is gonna be easy like this like imagine knowing that like a point in your life is gonna be the hardest part. Once you get past that, you're done. Everything else is going to be simple. That was the mindset I had going into the rest of the process. Then we transferred to Embryos. It was it, I was gonna say you got three left, so one didn't take, so you went down to two. Yeah, after the miscarriage, we did another transfer, which didn't work. And then for the fifth transfer, we were we actually roused down. We had a little video appointment with our doctor and she brought it up because we were like, maybe we should transfer to because when you're older, when you get closer to 40, they will talk about transferring to embryos, which, of course, could result in twins or technically quadruplets if they both split off. So and the doctor brought it up and we're like, yes, let's do to we're ready. Yeah, who gives a shit at this point just get it going. Yeah there and see what happens. then, yeah, and it worked and only one of them, obviously. Well, what's funny about that is they couldn't tell if it was one or two until like six weeks. So we, we found out that the transfer, I did a pregnancy test at home the day we were leaving for Europe. We're going to Europe for a little vacation. So that morning woke up at like 5 a peed on a stick and it came back positive. And we were in Europe for almost two weeks. so then we came back and that's when they did the test and they're like we can't tell if that's one or two in there so you gotta come back in a week and yeah came back we were like that whole time we're like shit what if it's two how many are in there my god yeah and but no and then that then we found out it was just just him are your emotions though? mean that's a roller coaster. We were excited, but still after everything we've been through, I still kind of felt like something was going go wrong. The entire pregnancy, honestly, until he came out and was healthy, then then we were finally feel like truly really excited and happy. I it was kind of like milestones. Like once we got past week 12, we like breathed a little bit easier. Once we got past week 18, we breathed a little bit easier. But then from I think like week 18 to him coming out and the doctor saying like he was healthy and she was healthy, I was not fine. Like I was not, I was like, I was happy, but I was not like, hey, we did it. Like that was not in my brain at all until both of these people were healthy. Yeah, that's, and I was following along via text, as Ben shared with me and through the miscarriage and then your tempering excitement at the same time, but I can't explain to you, how happy I was on the pregnancy and then the birth where it's just, verbally, yes, and Lauren's like, what is happening? Everything okay? Like, yes, everything is awesome. Because just knowing how hard. You guys worked for this to make this happen. You're never quitting. I'm sure you guys, I can't even explain the emotion of having a happy, healthy baby boy and mama. not have been able to do it with anyone else. Her stubbornness and her competitiveness was what did it. It was almost six years of just the worst struggle you can possibly imagine as a couple. that we can't imagine, appreciate the openness and transparency that you guys have. I think the mental health side of it, the communication aspect, a lot of what we've talked about is, I won't say superficial, but it's at the level of you're trying to work through troubles, what you two were able to work through mentally, physically, and to see a happy smiling baby boy at the end of this, it's just, it's amazing. Thank you. Yeah. It's funny going to my first week back at work after having him and I like, had a big meeting I had to do. I like, I don't care. I'll do my prep I need to do. But the result doesn't matter. I had this thing. Yeah, it puts a lot of things in perspective for sure. it's erm... And you're gonna see it throughout. Craig just mentioned that we see what is important in life. There's all these little things that seem like the biggest thing in the world, but at the end of the day, really not much. You've now lived through such a monumental, stressful and struggling time that those big meetings aren't gonna seem like big meetings. You can conquer anything at this point. I just can't wait to see the world that Atticus is living in, in your house, in your family, with all the love that's gonna be shared with him. We didn't even get to talk about, throughout all of this, you're doing Beard and Broad on Instagram, you're doing all the restaurants and the reviews. So as we exit here, what are your top learnings from sharing this out publicly with that community, the community you've built with Beard and Broad? What do you see that evolving into now that Atticus is here? I would say when we first started that Instagram and that blog it was was beers and food and that was it and then you know as we were dealing with this is like well that seems kind of like a lie if we're just still talking about that and we're going for all this stuff and I think I might have brought it up first is like how do you feel about like starting to share some of this stuff because I think A. It'll help us and B. I think it'll probably help some other people that are going through it that don't talk about it So we just kind of started little by little and then pretty quickly we started getting messages from people like of support And people saying like I haven't told anyone about you know, my kid was Was birth through IUI or I went through IVF or you know, I wasn't able to have a kid I'm rooting for you guys or you know, I had a miss after we had the miscarriage like I had three miscarriages I've told no one else except my husband like knows and that's it and so a lot of that I think was just we were looking for support and we got it and we were hoping to give support and we gave it. I will say that it can be hard being vulnerable in that state because it's you are getting, you're putting this news out there and then you are, we built a community of people that were also struggling to have children and you you hope that they don't struggle for forever. But then also when they stop struggling and they have a child, that also sucks for you because you didn't have a child yet. And the, this is again why we'll recommend therapy for forever is like we were able to be comfortable with realizing both things can be true at the same time. You can be happy for someone that is no longer struggling like you were, but you can also be very pissed and very sad and very depressed that it's not you yet. And so we always joked that they're not part of the club anymore. We're happy for them. They have a child, but they're no longer part of the fertility struggle club. And when we had him, we said the same thing. It's like, hey, I think we did a story about it. Post a lot about him, obviously. We've been working at this for almost six years. But if you need to unfollow us, if you need to stop commenting on stuff, if you need to disappear, totally get it, because this is going to suck for a lot of people. We're happy. We know people are going to be happy for us, but it's going to suck for a lot of people. What are your thoughts on it? You just kind of took everything I was going to say. Yeah. mean, sharing, just felt natural. Like I'm an introvert naturally and he's very much an extrovert and especially personal stuff. And he was the one who brought it up to share. And I'm so glad we did. mean, because there were so many people that we didn't know that were struggling and just felt natural once we started talking about it. And then, you know, the downside too is we have five thousand followers. So occasionally you get one or two people that are they think they know you or they offer some really wild wild advice for things like Ways that I could not miscarry again or you know, you try this? Supplement this this bean that only grows in this one part of you know Asia or something that you have to get from like the dark web like maybe that will you know, so like there it does open it up to some negative or some you know, feedback we don't want to. And I'm the type of person I can't let a message go unread or unanswered. So even if we get like 100 messages, I got to go through them all and either heart it or respond. But that was a struggle too while I was pregnant was people, you know, I didn't do so well with that, but you would often maybe make a nice response or something like that. Or just kind of like, just advise that we like, hey, let's, let's wait until tomorrow. Yes. Like, cause I am one of those people who I will type something out and be like, should I hit send? Ben's like, absolutely not. Do not. hour rule. Yeah, yeah, but I think where it's gonna go from here is a lot more like lifestyle stuff like we Talk about you know what we're cooking and you know, we're starting to feed him some solid food here and there So like that's gonna be part of it like get ready for those nappies slash diapers. Pipe bombs coming in. And so like managing through that and like we like to cook. So like how do you feed a child and like also yourselves still well? Yeah. And also you started talking about the lactation and pumping. Yeah. Yeah. With like breastfeeding and all that is a whole nother game. So I started talking about that. dump, pump and dump. Yep. so talking about that and like we, we still get offers, you know, we get a lot of things coming our way, like for, you know, sponsored posts and stuff, but we've really like cut back on like what's important to us or something that we want to try. Like we're really lucky a formula company reached out to us because I, we have to supplement a formula and it was a company I really wanted to try and we're working with them. So it's not our normal like fun things we may normally post about it's baby formula and we post twice a month about it. totally worth it because he loves the formula, we love it, and we're gonna talk about it. So of course we lost a lot of followers when we started focusing on one thing. Exactly. gone from the struggle and, you know, being used to it, like, this is going be the hardest moment ever. Like everything else after that, easier. Like we just going through this really hard, difficult, et cetera. And now it's that transition to, all right, well, now we're going to figure out breastfeeding, you know, softs, clothing, walking, teething. Yeah. The list goes on of shit. I don't want to do it again. Yep. It's just a transition, right? Which is awesome. It's also part of the journey. So, yeah, maybe it's... is a huge thing too. You're staying authentic to yourself, you're staying authentic to the relationship. We walk through 20 years of a journey and you've stayed authentic to yourself, you've gotten the help you need, you've helped each other. I think an inspiration as people are listening and struggling through, you can put your struggle into perspective. And Ben, I love what you said, the two things that can be true at the same time. What you're going through, what somebody else is going through, and that's a Dr. Becky -ism. If you're not following Dr. Becky, you I highly recommend following her because she's got all those words of wisdom where you think you're the only one going through something and you're not. There's many people out there. So I appreciate the transparency that you guys have been able to offer. What's the name of the Instagram handle? It's here. beard and bra, just so everybody has that out there. B E A R D A N D B R O A D. And I have to ask a question, Julia. Who named it? Who did name it? I think it was me. I it was too. I was embracing the broad side. I feel like I'm more of a broad than you were like beard. I don't even know what that means. But like at the time, I just was like, you have a beard. Yeah. Like I liked it because of that part of it. So was like, yeah, that sounds like bad ass for you. Yeah. Yeah. I embracing that. Yeah. Yeah. I still like it. I like it. and diapers. All in. And our hashtag, our newest hashtag has been Beard Broad Baby. it's perfect. Yeah, there you go. Three B's. Just looking at the posts, I've got the gallery up right now and we'll share it out in the episode. I the smiles, the happiness, seeing Atticus in there and all the wardrobe changes that he's made. Yes. Who made the, who picked Atticus as the name? That was kind of, I I may have mentioned it at first and then we kind of, that was always in the top like three for boarding because we didn't know what we were having. So, you know, we had one girl named picked out forever for years. The boy, I don't know, the boy was hard. So we had like three towards the end we were going with. Yeah. And so when he came out and he was a boy, because I announced the sex and she was like, are you sure? We thought for sure. like, yeah. boy, like, okay. And then after like things calm down and you know we were holding him and stuff and the doctor's left we're like, okay, what are we gonna name it? Okay. And then we had like a couple hours where we were like kind of going back and forth between like the three names and like figure out what fit him. And then we sell on Atticus. I always find that the weirdest thing as well, because you've got, sometimes you've got a name picked out for them and the baby comes out, they look different to the name relation. And then you're like, shit, I've got to pick a good name, because this is it for life. And you're giving me like X amount of hours to figure this out, but before we do the birth certificate. You're not naming a baby. You're naming an adult. who's going to have the name? He's an adult. Yeah. Too much pressure. I always thought that was hilarious. I'm like, this could be great. I could really stitch my kid up for life. Like Julius Caesar. Yes, miss, I'm in class. We've, the one topic we have not covered, we'll have this be the last one. You have a dog, cats, you've had fur babies this entire journey. And Bearden Broad has posted many of those journeys. How has the reception been when you bring Atticus home? Do they gravitate immediately or do they see, this is a new person. We need to defend our territory.-huh. It's gone in like stages. I would say we're at like kind of a newer stage now. Yes So toby or orange cat who's the oldest cat we have four cats. So toby's seven The other the girls are two and one. so toby We knew I was pregnant because of toby toby is ben's cat toby loves ben only wants everything to do with ben Even though i'm the crazy cat lady. He nothing with me But after we did that fifth transfer a couple days after up until we left for europe He laid on me on my stomach Every day all day as much as he could and I'm like, think I think I think he has to be like we said incubation Throughout my whole pregnancy. He on me was very attached to me and It was crazy and the girls indifferent and Murray our dog is my dog So we were a little worried that he would be a little territorial and corgi. He's a corgi. So he's Corgis are stubborn and their own little little person. So my dad and his wife, Reggie, were watching Murray while we were in the hospital. So, and we thought like we'd get back from the hospital, we'd have them bring Murray, it'd be fine. But I was a little, we were a little hesitant. like, can you keep Murray for a couple extra days? And they ended up keeping him for two weeks because I was just very nervous. But you know, we did the whole giving him Atticus' clothes so he could smell them and stuff. And he came in, you know, after two weeks into the house, we're right for the baby. And then just laid next to the baby. and kind of has ever since for the past five months. That's his baby. And so Toby and Murray love him so much, want to be by him all the time. The girls now are really interested in, since he's in the crib, trying to get in the crib with him for naps, at bedtime, trying to hurt. It's literally hurting cats. Like one goes out, another one comes in. If Murray's up there, he tries to herd the cats out of the room because that's his baby. He lets Toby stay. So story time, bedtime is usually us. you know Atticus, Murray and Toby and a girl, at least one girl cat coming in and out with Murray pushing him out. It's been really cute. Yeah and Murray has done, he's discovered a new habit slash skill. He, whenever Atticus is crying, we found it's mostly or almost always when Julia is home, if Atticus is crying Murray will howl. like a wolf. He will howl and cry and he's never done it before in his life. It's like he doesn't know what's happening. Like it's involuntarily coming out of him. There are times when like we can't get Atticus down. We're frustrated. It's been a long day and then Murray's doing that. We're kind of mad at Murray, but you can see on his face he's like, I can't stop it. I don't know what this is. Like his head will be down and it's really, it was cute at first, but now it's still every single time. He doesn't cry too much, but when he does, it's Murray is, my gosh. my gosh. No, no. It's like the always sunny episode where they just keep throwing cats in the wall. Ha ha! It'll get it, it'll fix it. Well, all I know is that is a household full of love because everybody coming together, mean, we appreciate you walking us through. We mentioned this, we have a 30 minute target for episodes. I think we're at over an hour now, but it's such a valuable story and I appreciate you guys coming in. We've talked, crazy cat lady was a keyword. We have IVF, think you are JD Vance's worst nightmare right now. I just want to share this message of love and family and give everybody a taste of what you guys have gone through and overcome. And also celebrate Atticus joining us in this world. And Ben, we got to work on it. I think you've said when Atticus came out every single time instead of just saying that he was born, but we'll work on that. Is there something traumatizing in that room for you, bud? up with. No, not at all, not at all, nope, nope, nope. Okay, perfect. definitely lying, because I was shitting my pants when the babies were coming out. Any man that says they weren't, they were like... absolutely liars then it's like do you want to cut the embedicocorn like that kind of looks like that feels like I'm cutting a sausage or something that's not yeah taken a turn, which means we should probably wrap this up. For everybody listening, head to Instagram. Beard and Broad is the handle. Please give Ben and Julia and Atticus and the whole family a follow. And while you're there, take a look at the Struggle Bubble Pod. We would love to continue the conversation. We will post a few photos, maybe even a few yearbook photos. Ben, Julia, I've got the yearbooks right in that room back there. We'll post some lovely freshmen, sophomore, junior year photos of of all of us. didn't I didn't really hit my stride until I was about like 26. So there's Hahaha! well, we'll let you know when you your stride, It's okay, didn't grow till he was 25. I stopped growing when I was a freshman in high school. All right, everybody, appreciate you listening. We'll see you again next week. Thanks guys.