Welcome to the struggle bubble. I'm Chad Cutting. I'm Craig Surgey. Tonight, tonight it's today. I've had a long weekend, Craig. We're already struggling on the struggle bubble. We're excited to welcome Mike Donahue. Mike is currently the Senior Vice President of Global Sales at Gup Shop. Spent just about 15 years as a sales leader, companies like Square, Optimized, Leanplum, and PayPal, where Mike and I got to know one another. Welcome Mike. Thanks, Chad. Thanks, Craig. Always great to catch up, Chad. Really appreciate you guys having me on. Yeah, we love talking with folks that we've worked with that are also doing some pretty fun things. Before we jumped on the show, we talking about your week last week racing. Why you fill everybody in a little bit about what you got to experience last week. Yeah, we raced in the 60th Rolex Big Boat Series, which is the largest fleet racing event of the year on San Francisco Bay. had a race in the J105 fleet on a boat called Zuni Bear. And yeah, it was really exciting. Four days, seven races, and we hit our goal. We ended up finishing 10th and yeah, just happy to be getting better each year with a good team. was a lot of fun. How frigid is the San Francisco Bay this time of year? man, we had in sailing you have you have a lot of a lot of crew that sits on the on the rail and on the foredeck and they take up and down the spinnaker and these guys were shivering soaking wet but they all had big smiles on their faces and we had a we had a great time but then it's really it's really cold it really yeah this weekend's a big test of a lot of a lot of things especially ability to withstand the cold and just getting waves crashed onto you for hours on end. From what I understand, anybody that has raced, and we'll get into your men's national rowing career in a second, but anybody that wants to be on a boat and do these types of things, likes a little bit of torture. Is that part of the psyche? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I love racing. That's for sure. I like boat racing, but yeah. I think there's, some might see it as torture, but I think it's more of a, it's just like pressure and a huge challenge and competition. And I think, yeah, withstanding some of the elements like adds to the... pressure and competition, because I think only so many people are willing to put them through that and do it with a smile and enjoy it. But yeah, I think it's type two fun. That's my favorite word for it. You don't have a ton of fun while you're doing it, but you look back after and you're like, damn, that was the best weekend I've had in a long time. How do you even get into, like you said a lot of numbers at the start for the class and this is like a, like is this sponsored? Like it's a, it's obviously sponsored championship or race. So how the hell do you even get into being like, hey, I'm gonna go and sit on a boat for four days. Now it could be you've got five kids and you don't wanna be at home. I mean, that's totally valid. But how do you get onto? that world. Yeah, I have a unique path. think most folks, most folks grow up with it. Some folks, you know, sailed with their family members or, you know, were part of a crew. for me, it was a big part of just kind of filling the gap. I know we'll talk about this later from rowing. was, you know, really competitive rower in college at Columbia and I was on the national team for a couple of years and Since starting my professional career, just always felt, kind of always felt this like a little bit of like a void of, you know, just having a competitive hobby that was outside of work that I could, you know, really just channel lot of that energy into. So I tried a lot of different things. I tried cycling and bike racing and journey with a FedEx truck. not a lot of spare time during the day. is not my thing because people are shitty driving. that wasn't the most sustainable path. And then about three, four years ago, there's a current day yacht club in Tiburon. I wasn't a member. I'd never stepped foot in a yacht club before. And I just reached out to some folks and said, hey, how can I get on a boat? And they have a Friday night racing series during the summer. And I started just hopping on other people's boats and crewing with literally no knowledge of the sport other than I like. you know, being on the water and sit on boats and trying to beat the other one across the way. And yeah, that went into just doing that for a summer, taking some lessons and then kind of blindly buying this J -105 boat and starting a team. Yeah, so J -105 is a class of boat. 105 stands for 10 .5 meters, which is 34 and a half feet. And Yeah, it's the largest one design keelboat class in the bay. I we had 30 entries of J105s racing for Rolex this weekend. And we have a full season, which I'm on the XCOM for, and it's really fun to organize. It's a great group of guys and gals who participate in it. Some have been doing it for over 20 years. I mean, a lot of these boats are from the 90s and early 2000s. For me, it's just been an amazing community and a really, really fun way to pick up and learn about sailing and just a lot of life lessons too. You learn a lot on the bay. Yeah, it's unforgiving. about rowers and boaters, sailors, it's a very select crew and boat, boatsmen, they, if you're not up to snuff, they know that right away and they're protective. They don't want to get on a boat with somebody that doesn't know what they're doing. How did you enter that conversation? Such a great question. Yeah. I, I, the guys who stuck with me that first year, boy. I'm forever indebted to them. But actually I, I started the team with a bunch of rowers who also didn't really know much about sailing. And we had, we had a couple of mentors hop on from other boats who are really generous and brave and kind to teach us a lot of the fundamentals of, you know, jibing, putting up the kite. a lot of safety on the water and we got out of that season, we didn't have too many hairy incidents, but that was a big part of it for me is like who to trust, who to learn from, who's going to keep us safe and that's the first year. It's not being competitive, it's being safe. Mike, let's go get on a boat together, what would you say? Idiots. could take you out, I could keep you safe. You'll be fine. I was going to say, like. Nielsen, Craig, because I asked Dave if I could get on the boat, that was, you know, go rowing with him, and he did one of those, maybe not. those pedal boats at the sauna. That's as far as you can go. Yeah. Maybe go on the canoes at Disneyland. Let's start there. There's two or three things you said there, Mike. One, guess the guys that helped you at the start, were like, these guys may kill themselves. We should probably go and help them. pretty... Yeah. And then... You're obviously in adrenaline junket because rowing to me is one of the most brutal sports I've ever seen. You've got to be a little bit crazy to put your body through. And then you transition that into, you know, I'm into mountain biking. So transitioning that into road racing or road riding, again, you're trying to push your body to the max constantly, right? You're trying to break your body. Every time you go out is always the next level you're trying to achieve. So, I'm just super intrigued how that adrenaline junkie has kind of come from getting into rowing and now obviously and at the same right you just said before we got on 35 knots this past weekend that's not slow on a piece of wood with a big kite Yeah, no, no, that was the most breeze I saw this last weekend. was exciting. Yeah, I love mountain biking too. I'm up here in Mill Valley. We've got great trails. good trails. no, it's the... through that, like, where you came from, like, how you got into the rowing scene, and then, you know, US Olympic team, et cetera. So it just gives a little history lesson. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So yeah, I moved around a lot growing up. I spent most of my time in Seattle and then Pennsylvania. And I think when I moved to Pennsylvania, was like the end of middle school. I was trying a lot of sports. Something about me is I always wanted to, I always had the willpower and I wanted to be really good, but I rotated through, I think, every sport in middle school and high school. A lot of B -teams too. football, basketball, lacrosse, water polo. I think I won an award for being on the most different sports teams, which probably my parents just like, you know, doing a good job and keeping me active and rotating around. But I think what I really learned is like, mean, rowing was the last one I tried. So many people were like, you should try rowing. And I was like, I don't, I don't know. I was like, I'm like more with traditional big sports, like. lacrosse and football, which my high school had really good programs around. you know, I think I just, I just kind of gave in. was like, you know what? I'm going to start rowing to get in shape for lacrosse in the spring. Cause I was used to doing a lot of other sports and there's something, something about it. I mean, first and foremost, we had an amazing, amazing coach who knew I was going to get probably hooked before I even started. But I think, you know, when I started, it was just like, I really hadn't been a part of like a team before. And I think once I like, there was something really unique about the aspect of a rowing team. And once I got in that dynamic, like, and I found something that was a natural, a sport that was more of a natural fit for me. I just like got this extra gear of energy and adrenaline and focus to put towards it. And it was just off to the races from there. Yeah. So middle school was when you kind of jumped into the sport. I jumped into it my sophomore year of high school. Yeah, it's a little late. lot of people, some people do it in middle school. Some people do it freshman year, but yeah, I jumped in like the winter of my sophomore year of high school, yeah. That's something we continue to talk about on past episodes where we have hyper specialization at young ages. We're starting to see our kids or friend groups or the leagues that we were in. No, focus here. You're playing baseball year round or you're playing lacrosse year round, playing soccer year round. It doesn't provide that opportunity to kind of go out and explore. And here we have you giving a member of men's national team, discovering the passion for sport, your sophomore year in high school. Yeah, the big lesson that I just got was like from that rotation and early on, it's just like, always try new things. Like that was it for me. know, like I love lacrosse. I was like a lacrosse junkie. was like, all the gear was obsessing over, know, just I was going to a of like MLS, like professional matches and just loved it. And then I just tried new things and you know, just the next thing I tried rowing was like a lifelong passion. Today, all my best friends. I rode with in college and on the national team a bit. Yeah, just was a big lesson to try new things. So does it go from, sorry, does it go from school and then there's clubs you can join? how did that, so sophomore you get hooked, you're like, all right, this is cool. Because I don't even know if, Los Gatos High School have a rowing team? I don't know if all high schools even offer that, honestly. Yeah, there's a lot of great rowing up here in Northern California, a lot of good different programs, but there's a mix. There's a mix of high schools and clubs. So some schools have programs. I'm not too familiar with, I think it's mostly clubs around this area, but my high school had a team and yeah, I just joined our high school team. What ron was it? Because there's like the sing - is it skull or what are the single? Okay. We did sculling too, which was, it's pretty, I think it's pretty split at the scholastic high school level, but college everyone sweeps and rose eights. And the difference for everyone is like, sculling is two oars, one of each hand and sweeping is one oar. yeah, I got, we focused on the quad, which is a four man, four man boat in high school. And that's actually the same boat I rode on the national team as well in the men's quad. Yeah. So that road to the national team then, Mike, you find the passion sophomore year, when did you realize that you're good at it and how did that lead into decisions for college and this men's national team over time? Yeah, no, that's a great question. I still remember the moment too. Yeah, I started sophomore year, you know, just like we were talking about sailing earlier, you're learning how to put an organ in each hand and put it through the water and not flip the boat. you know, we had a good, call your first year your novice year, and everyone generally rose novice. There's something nice about the sport they used to do in college too, that no matter how good you were, you rode freshman, your freshman year and a freshman crew. So I completed my novice year and I was really encouraged by the older guys. That was a big thing. They were telling me to stick with it. Hey, you got a natural ability for this. You got a lot of potential and no one really told me that in the sport before. That was really nice and we had a really good coach. yeah, I think just that first year I just got on the water as much as I could. I wrote all winter. All spring, all summer, I joined a multiple club on Boathouse Row in Philadelphia. And then that next year was my first season. I had an opportunity to make the varsity or JV team. I didn't really know how it's going to shake out. We wrote singles, which is really unique because rowing is generally a team sport. you row big boats like quads or eights are like the biggest boat in each category. yeah, I remember that fall of my... my junior year, I was more or less like trying to figure out the single. I hadn't really spent a lot of time in that boat before. And I knew I had a lot of power from the erg and the erg testing. And I mean, that summer was like, I was like flipping the boat like it, like on a weekly basis. I didn't have a lot of hope going into the, going to the season, but I didn't let that get in my way. And I was determined to be the fastest I could be and do the fastest on the team. And, and we would do a lot of head races and I kind of finished in the middle of the pack and then the, you know, upper middle of the pack. And I'm not even sure if I won, I won one of our like school races that, that, that fall. But, we did this big event, which is the first, the, the U S rowing sponsors this event. It's a little bit of a shorter race. It's a 2000, it's just over 2000 meters, which is the standard and it's called the U S speed order. And that's when they invite all of these single scholars in the country to come out to Princeton and race on the national team course at Mercer. and do the single trials speed order. And they have one for the senior team and the top guys on the senior team get invited to senior national team camp and that's a big event for them. And then they had a junior speed order. And I remember this day like super vividly, like it really foggy, was a gloomy day in Princeton. I was like kind of an eerie, it was my first like national team event. I didn't even know what to think about it. Like all these big names, you know, in the country, guys who had won US Youth Nationals the year before, as a novice were there. I'm like, I'm competing against them. And I'm like, holy shit, this is going to be exciting. And I just, I remember going down the course and just feeling like I had a good race and putting my all into it. And, know, there's this moment at the end where you don't really know how you did because it's one boat going down next to each other. I remember all the older guys who went to Henley the summer before were all kind of sitting around for the results and some guys coming out with a board and a stapler and I'm like, all right, we'll see. I know I gave it my best and I think there were like 40, 50 single scullers and the guy posted the results on the page and I finished second and I was just blown away. Honestly, my first reaction was, is that right? Somebody made an error. like, did they make a mistake? I think I finished second behind Austin Meyer, who won the lightweight double, was one of the top recruits in the country, was going to Harvard the next year. And I was like, wow, OK. And that was a big moment for me. That's really cool to hear as well, sorry, Chad. I was just gonna say, going in, like we talk about imposter syndrome all the time. Like that's purely like, all right, I've got a little passion, I'm pretty good. Like people say I'm okay, whatever, right? But then you're going into this big, like, I don't know what to expect event, and I'm kind of, you know, going in, imposter syndrome's kicking in, you're like, I'm just gonna give it all, I'm just gonna put it out there. and see what happens. we talk, like Chad just said, we talk about all this individual training for these kids from seven, eight, nine, 10, whatever. You're just literally, you're the guy that's just like, it's through my backpack and I just went and ripped it up. the philosophy. If you show up at an event and put pressure on yourself to get a certain place, that's just additional wins in your face. That just makes it harder. These sports and competitive arenas are about doing your best, showing up, having fun, putting in the work, that's a huge part. And then the result takes care of itself. We talk about that all the time. The score will be the score. The result will be the result. Like you do the work in practice, you train, et cetera, but when it's game time, there's just things you can and can't control. And one of the, is the actual outcome, the win, the loss, whatever. You gotta give it all. You may not have the right stuff the day before. You may not have enough flu. There's all these variations that can affect it. So as long as you have that, I love that mentality as well. Like, cool, they're gonna pin a board and I'm gonna see where my name is. I'm starting from the bottom. I'm like, shit. going. Yeah, I've just known how to put the right work in for sure. It's the work and the preparation, then in, like rowing, especially if you're on your own there, you can get your own in your own head really quickly, right? I don't feel it today, don't, like this hurts because it's grueling and you have to give it your all on every single row, every single row. Describe your mental state as you're going through a race. Are you in that flow state where there's nothing else around you except for just that ore? there's that book, there's a book like Finding Flow that really describes it well. And that's totally what it is. And I think if like there's anything in my superpower, like in my, if I had a superpower in rowing, was like the ability to like, you know, just build the muscle memory and turn the mind off and just haul on it. And yeah, and just being connected with the water and having fun. Yeah. yeah, Michael Phelps, the same thing. I feel ready as bucks and stuff, but he was saying, I think he trained for three years straight. It was something insane like that where he was in the water every single day and people talk about rest and recovery and everything is like, I just, my muscle memory is so strong. I mean, you get cycling, get sailing, you get rowing. It's just doing something that takes a lot of effort and a lot of precision and just doing it in a mental state that feels like no effort at the same time. Yeah, it's really fun. Yeah. You said it. Favorite thing. that mix of passion where you realize that you are excited about getting into the boat. You're excited about racing. You mentioned that a couple of times where it feeds your energy. And then there's a skill. There's a talent of refining your craft and getting better and better at it. Describe a little bit about that approach to practice and getting better. How do you mentally go in each day to, especially on the national team, well, not quite on the national team yet, right? To get to the national team and the dedication it takes to get to the next level. I mean, that's coaching. That's like the number one job of a good coach in any like different arena. It's like really teaching athletes and teaching individuals how to appropriately prepare. What are the right things to focus on? What are the right things to be intense about? Where do you place stress to prepare for an event or just learn the right techniques? Yeah, that was a lot of coaching. think, and yeah, for me, I also, just the way I was raised, like my parents are amazing. I love my parents. yeah, just, they didn't put much pressure on me either. Like they were just like, hey, you know, they weren't big athletes. Like they were ever on a high school or college or national sports team. And they were kind of like, you know, it's creating an environment where it's like, hey, show up and, you know, do this. We'll make sure you're fed and. drop you off at school and pick you up after practice and there was never any pressure of you know in any sport I did of results or needing to make a specific team that all came from within you know and came from you know came from the wanting to wanting to be at the level of talent of the other people on the team and the other people on different teams and the people on the national team it was just yeah that's that's really where I think where a lot of that came from. And yeah, I think that really created that environment for me to want to do well. I think that at end of the day, that's what's most important. Let's mark that clip, Craig. Let's mark that clip. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna say what you just said, Mike. Number one, no pressure from parent or others. Right, it's all on you. You go try it, see how you do. Number two, don't worry about the teams that you're on because you're seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 years old, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter where you sit today is where we're trying to get to. Put the work in. Dedication, time, energy, effort. If you don't love it, you won't put the energy and effort in to be exceptional at it. You get those three things together, you don't know where you could end up. Yeah, absolutely. And find a good coach. Find a good coach that creates that environment for those three things. That's a value. That's a value. Yeah. one thing I always skip, because Chad and I are coaches, but part of that is your coach is kind of like work related. You don't quit the team or the company, you quit the manager. Same thing with a coach, right? If the coach is the right one, it doesn't matter which club you're in, which team you're in, that person is gonna help that child progress and move forwards. and really good coaches coach the parents too. Like that's what I. one, go back to some of the clips. Number one, what's my first thing when I take a team over? I interview the parents before I even see the kids. I mean, I see that consistently. Yeah, it's just creating that whole system. Yeah, it's all really important. Yeah, that reinforcing nature. So Mike, at that point, men's national team, you finish second in that race. You're on this. What does it mean to be on the men's national rowing team? Yeah, so there's different levels of the national rowing team. So for me, I joined the under 23 team in college at Columbia. And so for me, my progression was, you know, had that event, know, sophomore year. We then won the national championship in the men's quad. I finished the speed order my junior year, won the national championship in the men's quad my junior year. got recruited to a bunch of schools, went to my dream school Columbia. And then I set the goal my freshman year to make the under 23 team, which was insane at the time. I think I was 19 or 20. And I just love setting big, big, unattainable, unattainable goals. for me, we actually qualified about... My senior year or my junior, we qualified that junior boat to race the under 23. So we were gonna get this right. I mean, we were like 18, 19. But being on national team was something that just like my coach was in high school was one of the heads of the like US rowing, like youth committee. And I got to exposure to a lot of these national team athletes. And I just like looked at these guys like gods. I'm like, these guys are masters of the sports. They like. can move a boat through the water like no other. And I just wanna be around people at that level. Just like, they just got it and I could learn from them and it just felt cool to me. So freshman year, I set this campaign to try to make the men's squad on the under 23 team. I showed up to Princeton again for the speed order. In the fall, we had a big ERG test against like all the Olympic dudes. First time in the room, freshman in college, I'm like in the same erg room as like the top of the top scullers in the country, all the top scullers across all the countries, across all the different college teams. And I'm like, wow, this is intense. These guys are pulling like 18 minutes, six case and I've never broken 20 minutes. It's just crazy fast. And like, I just never seen that level of. of competition and level of speed before. And I got it pretty well. got like middle of the pack. like PR to 6K and broke 20 for the first time. And it felt good. And I just remember that for me, it was just putting in the work. We talked about that. That winter, I spent so much time on the erg. I like had this national team shirt my coach, my high school coach gave me. I'd wear it. I'd look at myself in the mirror in the erg room. I'd like. 10 p on Saturday nights, just like ripping away, doing steady state. I'd have friends up from college and I'd be like, hey guys, I can't hang out tonight, I'm practicing. Like it was just like kind of psychotic. But I just really wanted it. yeah, ended up, this was a great story. I ended up getting invited to the under 23 camp. I think it was me and maybe one other freshman in the country. And I actually got sent home that summer. we had a amazing coach, this guy, Dave Reichman. was the head coach of Syracuse. and I, we had, in rowing, you have these things called sea races, which, you know, in terms of intensity and measurement, it's really, really cool. Like, especially these national team camps, like it's like survivor, the TV show you invite, like, you invite like 15 to 20 of the best college rowers in the country to go to this camp. They all show up. stay in college dorms. were at the wonderful. Oklahoma City University that summer real hot and and you all room together and then over the course of like four weeks, just people just start getting sent home and you just kind of get cut from camp and you're competing for four seats and you do these things called sea races where you and they're totally you don't know when they're happening. So you have two boats, you race down, you know, five, 10 minute segment and then the coach tells everyone to pull the boat together and you switch. one person out from each boat to the other, and then you race again, whichever time was faster, that's who individually won the seat race. And so it's a period of that for just weeks on ends, and you've competed and tried all year to get invited to camp, and then you're at this camp, and you're trying not to get cut, and it's pretty intense. So that summer, I think I won like majority of my seat races, and I went. I mean, we were like five people and coach had to make a decision and think he felt like things were pretty even. And I just had less experience than the other guy. I mean, he was like a senior junior at Yale. He had been on national teams before. And the coach told me like, this other guy who's an awesome guy, me and him are good friends still. He's like, he just has more international racing experience. And, you know, we're going to go with him. And I think I was a little bitter. I was a little, I felt like. I deserved the seat and I was frustrated for sure. I was really bummed. I think I felt it was because I was a freshman, but you know what? I went home and I just raced the single like day one. I got home, I jumped back in the boat and was just racing the racing the single in Philadelphia, competed in some some races. Yeah, I think I raised I did a race like maybe within one or two weeks later in Philadelphia and then. I got a call from the under 23 coach that said, hey, that same guy had a rib injury. Would you be willing to come back to camp? So I asked my parents if they'd support me with it. And I flew back to Oklahoma City the next day, I think. And I competed in the under 23s in Belarus. I was the only freshman on the team and on whole under 23 team. That was just a really cool experience. I think it was really unique in a lot of ways for my first national team experience. It was really exciting. massive for any parents with kids at elite level or even kids listening. Number one, you were pissed, so you went and probably trained even harder, right? Naturally, because that's just how it goes. But number two, you stayed ready because that gap of making it could be somebody's injury, somebody fell walking up the stairs, whatever could knock somebody out, and you have to be ready to go the minute that phone call comes in. and I wasn't even thinking about that, to be honest. I was thinking about next year. I was like, you know what? I'm gonna make sure that it's not even up for debate next year. I'm just gonna put the effort in. mean subconsciously you're back in flow state. I'm gonna make it next year, I'm gonna work even harder, but that kept you in exactly the right shape, exactly the right mind to if something did happen, you were straight back in. It's crazy. That's one of the things that is so difficult to teach kids and in the workforce is that delayed gratification. The work you put in today is not going to pay off today, tomorrow, next week, but it's seeding the next quarter, the next year, the next big event. And really, really difficult to mentally get through. Mike, as you make that transition from busting your ass every single day, you have those goals. and you start seeing the, at the end of this, I'm not gonna be a professional rower making millions of dollars in sponsorships. I need to start thinking about what I do while still fulfilling the passion that I have. How does that mentality start to form as you get towards the end of college? Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I was on three national teams during college. Two of them, got to live at the Olympic Training Center around all the Olympic athletes from all the different sports. And I was like, I want to be an Olympian, but it doesn't, it does not pay the bills. And I was still committed to that. think with a little bit of like nudging and like slight encouragement, I saw a lot of my friends doing this, like they were all getting internships. And I was like, you know what, should get an internship. And I had started this business in college to kind of just, you know, just fuel some money in New York City of going out with my friends. was, it was called Dorm Prep and I was doing other students' laundry and dry cleaning and delivering water to their rooms. And it was kind of a selling to like freshman mothers of a boy's thing. Yeah. This was early days, exactly. There were these subscription packages. It was like, let your son focus on their studies and leave the rest to us. And we had a good couple of customers and we had good service. And I started accepting Square for my business with credit cards. And I was just like, wow, this technology is super cool. I grew up in Seattle a bit around Microsoft. I really never understood technology. One of my dad's friends worked on computer games and I thought that was awesome. And then I just... You know, I started, I started like realizing how technology could fuel businesses. And I'm like, it was huge for my business. I was able to get so many more sales, being able to accept credit cards, like right at, right at the pitch and stuff. And yeah, I was really just fascinated by Square. I went to their website, I saw a of their recruitment videos and I reached out to them and I was like, Hey, I'm in New York. I have a sales background with this. business and I'd love to have an internship with you guys if you're hiring. And then they eventually they started this Square U college ambassador program and they gave me a URL, squareup .com slash NYC and I would just hand this out all over the city. And I was just, and I really enjoyed it. And they like, it wasn't like. you know, big, big check or anything. But for me, it was, was cool, cool work experience. I could share my story and starting a business. I could, you know, they had these sales contests, which I, which I fell into the trap of. really liked those. And I, yeah, yeah. They had this spiff, the sales contest where you can win an iPad. I really wanted an iPad. So I think I signed up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. short. So yeah, I did this first sales contest with them and yeah, we won the sales contest. I signed up a bunch of petty cabs in New York City and I kind of realized at that moment that I could translate this goal orientation, working hard, connecting with people, having fun to this sales passion at Square and I saw good results from it. Yeah, I got, I just got really, really interested in working at Square. So eventually I flew out to San Francisco for a set of interviews with a number of tech companies. And, I remember like my internship manager, like, I had a phone call with him once and I was like, Hey, I, I was like, I know I'm really loving this internship. I like, I think I could give up rowing for this. This is maybe the job I want to do, which for me was huge, but he was probably on the other side. Okay. But yeah, I ended up getting this job at Square in a similar way. They told me they were gonna move me out to Atlanta to start a team. was like, don't think I'll work wherever. I just want to work at Square. And then I think two weeks or a month before, I saw they had the same role in San Francisco. And I was like, I'd really love to work at the headquarters. I'd really love to work around Jack Dorsey and you can pay me the same salary as Atlanta. Like I'll do whatever to go move to San Francisco. And they took it, believe it or not. Yeah. And it was tough for the first couple of months and then they moved me back to I think more of a parity salary, but it was a... say, were you rooming with 10 other people in San Francisco to afford it? with four other rowers right outside the Cal Berkeley Boathouse in Oakland. and you rode across the bay to the ferry building and then down to square. lot of Bart. That was the summer of the Bartpocalypse too. So I really, quickly moved to San Francisco for four to six months. Yeah. It's just, it's so incredible to see, I mean, as we're talking, kicking off the conversation, the key themes and tenets of your life that you build and ground yourself with and how it translates to each. And Craig, you and I have talked so much on this podcast about walking through open doors, asking for what you want, networking and building on your strengths. I think Mike, you've fully encapsulated all of that and hit on some key points of. being kids and being able to explore experiments so that when it does come time to make a decision, you have so much to lean on, so much data to lean on. Yeah, I really like how you mentioned asking for what you want, because I think that's the hardest one, especially for athletes. Like if you ask to be on the national team or you ask for that seat in the boat, like you just don't do that. It's just not, you just got to put the work in. But in the work arena, like you do have to ask for what you want. And that's a big skill transition. But I think you just have to have the confidence, you know. yourself and in the work that you put in that you know it's a worthy ask it's a reasonable ask and yeah pointed out it's a different ask in the sports world, cause it's a how. That's the ask is how do I get to that role? How do I get to the national team? How do I, cause there's a process and as you know, like that guy that took the full spot, he'd just done it a few years longer than you, right? But now you know how, right? You've got yourself into that environment and you're learning steps, same as square, right? You've got yourself into that environment and then you ask, well, how do I? get a full -time job here, how do I, can I get to San Francisco, et cetera. those goals are, I think for me, it's all the same. It's transition from sports as a kid to wherever you get and play or highest level, whatever, then in the working world. I think we just, that number one is the adrenaline kick, right? We're always trying to grab what we can't have, but we're just trying to crush it constantly to get there. And then it's, we're... Again, from the athletic side, where I was asking, how do I get faster? How do I get stronger? How do I, it just all kind of accumulates into one kind of big ball from an athlete into the professional world. Yeah, for sure. So Mike, as we wrap up, and appreciate you sharing all this, I'm picturing a high school freshman that isn't thinking about career whatsoever, but big into sports, big into making their next first team, or the freshman in college, same type of thing, what am I getting into? If you could go back and give yourself advice, or give all these kids advice that are not yet going through it, what would it be? where you're going Chad, I like where you're going. Yeah, if I give people advice, find something that you just absolutely love doing. In this generation, what makes you put your phone down for four to six hours and you don't even think about it? And then find the best people and try to surround yourself with people that are doing that at a really high level. And just like, you know, just like, think we get this like natural gravitation towards people like that. When you're just like, wow, they are just like, that's why we like love watching, you know, professional sports. But when you can do that with your own sport or your own arena, whatever it is, you know, that's, that's really cool. It just, it just feels, feels awesome to see someone like mastering their, their craft in that way. And then, you know, find, find a coach and a mentor. Like that's. For me in sailing, that's like the biggest thing I've like really sought out. And I've like finally found a really good buddy who I think can help guide me in that way. it's like find a coach and a mentor who has really great values. Someone you get along with, someone you can have like real conversations with. But at the same time, they know the formula. They know the formula for preparation, for where to put in the work. And I think putting in the work is really important because like... anything worth doing requires like a ton of work, but it's knowing and there's, you know, I think we're all, you know, really highly ambitious, you know, people with a lot of adrenaline, you know, and I think it's knowing where to apply that in the right way. And I think that's where coaches can be just brilliant, you know, in helping. Absolutely. Mike, we really appreciate you coming on and sharing your story with us, for everybody listening. Continue the conversation. We have our Instagram set up, the Struggle Bubble Pod. Happy to connect the conversations, whether that's rowing, athletics, the goals, the dreams, the ambitions of the US national team or future Olympians. Just helping ground that conversation and connect you with the right people. So Mike Donahue, thank you so much for joining us today. A reminder, we have signed our first sponsor, X2O Studios, which is a big win for us, but as we talk about this athleticism, the studios that they have, if you wanna put the work in and get that extra little bit, a great place to start. They're offering all of our listeners 20 % off of new packs. Highly encourage everybody to check it out this week. So with that, we'll see everybody next week. Mike, thank you. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. Thanks guys. Thanks Mike.