Welcome to the Struggle Bubble. I'm Chad Kutting. I'm Craig Surgey Excited to have Mr. Kelly Cheeseman on our show today. Kelly is the COO and alternate governor of the LA Kings and AEG Sports. Kelly, thank you for joining us. you guys. I'm really proud to be here for various reasons so I'm excited. Well, we're definitely get into it. So a little bit of background. Kelly and I worked together back in 2006. My first job out of college was to work for the Anschutz Entertainment Group in Los Angeles, back when LA Live was literally a hole in the ground. And they were building everything up downtown and had an opportunity to work in the King's organization. It was just an incredible time to be part of it. And Kelly, just first off, I appreciate everything that you Matt Rosenfeld, Carola Ross, Chris McGowan did early in my career to get me up and running. Thank you, Chad. was very proud. As soon as I saw the struggle bubbles start hitting the internet, I was like, man, I got to weasel my way onto there to have a talk with you guys. There is no weaseling at all. We appreciate you listening and reaching out and happy to have you on. Let's just start there. So back when I joined, that's 2006, 18 years ago. You've been with AEG, LA Kings 23 years now. For the sports industry, that's an incredibly long time. What do you chalk it up to being able to be as successful as you have been and be with the organization for that many years? You know, there's, there's always a lot of opportunities for us. There's, you know, hundreds of teams around the world. but there's very few in the United States. And I think when I got down to it, I had great mentors. met, mentioned them, you know, Chris and Carla, and, others around me, Dan Beckerman, our CEO, who's my boss now. You get to understand like great leadership and great ownership is a value to work in this business. And. Mr. Anschutz and his family are bar none the best in sports and to have stability of ownership that allows us to build our plan around us and have success, challenge us, not micromanage us is really critical for us to do what we want to do on a day-to-day basis. And I value that. I started at the company where 250 employees, were the Kings and Staples Center at that time. And we've grown to... You know, one of largest sports entertainment companies in the world. So right place, right time is a certain factor to that. So I've grown up in a company, just like a startup, and you guys have been a part of those before. But it's great ownership, great people, great city. And I've grown my family here, so I'm locked in. And you've been part of the, like the highest highs of unfortunately after I left was with the Stanley cup runs and two trophies that you brought home. I, well, that's a separate, conspiracy theory we'll get into in a second, there's also, and people see it from the outside being part of sports. So it's, it's a glamorous, you get to go to all these games, all these hub high profile events being in LA is a whole separate, know, benefit where. I mean, we were watching the Grammys and different shows behind the scenes when we working in Staples Center. But there are lows associated with that as well. I mean, you have some years where the team isn't performing and you're in rebuild mode. And one of the most enlightening things that I was a part of, Dean Lombardi, GM of the Kings, walked us through the age progressions of older teams, younger teams and how you build that up. How do you stay motivated in those tougher times when the team isn't performing as well, knowing all that pressure that comes with fandom? You want to win now every single year, but it's a process. Yeah, the tough times, it depends the scenario, right? in those tough times, mean, early on, think Dean really taught us about building an organization to win and what is really, was really going to be needed to be done to achieve the long-term goal. Nobody knew if it would actually work. I mean, you see a lot of teams do it now and talk about the rebuild and teams I think are probably a lot more. transparent about their rebuilds now and they actually say the word rebuild. Whereas in the past you wouldn't talk about it. You probably didn't have the same media market to talk about it in the same way. But I think ultimately leaning in on a plan that everybody can build towards was the critical aspect. So you can not only talk about it internally, but talk about it to the fans, to the fans you're selling tickets to, to the partners that you're... selling sponsorships to and getting them aligned with that plan so they want to be a part of that moment when you do win. when you achieve it, like we did in 2012 and 14, it only helps the longer term piece where in a few years later you have to go back down and you have to rebuild a new plan and you have many of the same partners with you, many of the same season ticket members with you and you can communicate like, hey, we went up, now we have to. go back down and we're able to be transparent with them. And for us, it's the hardest points are when you feel like you're on that trajectory, but you don't know when that plan is gonna take that turn. That's the hardest part because you're like, oof, that wasn't the plan. But when you can reset yourselves, it gets yourself a certain level of balance, especially for a human like me. Like I need a plan. I need a plan to talk about. That's what makes my heart feel good. Yeah, and that element of trust that you talk about is big, not only in sports, but just across the board of having everybody understand that there is a plan, first of all, and that it might not be right, but it's directional. And then when there are changes, I mean, you do state of the franchise every year and you keep people posted, updated on everything that's going on. Do you still stay active in that community? you, I mean, from the time I was there was message boards. And now you've got all of social media podcasts like this that are ripping the organization one way or the other. Have you seen, how have you seen the change over time and how you communicate with your fandom? Yeah, it's gone wider, right? And then mainstream media has gotten narrower. So the big media streams like the LA Times and, and, know, some of the other platforms, they don't have as many beat writers following the team on a day, any team really, you you talk about the fact that the New York Times bought the athletic and then athletic has thinned down and it's just changed. So, you know, you, it gets a little bit more challenging in my opinion, because you see things like Twitter bloggers and stuff carrying the narrative and then bots and haters following along on that and then a narrative can change on you. So you got to do your best job to get your story and your plan out there by doing the things like you were talking about Chad with state of the franchise and being available for the people that matter the most as your stakeholders with your season ticket holders and your partners. And then you got to perform. You got to execute what you're talking about and That's what's most critical. And if you're changing from where you were talking about, it's best to try to communicate that. You can't always be as transparent as you'd like to be, but that's always the goal. What is your advice for the Cleveland Browns franchise? That's a tough one. know, Chad, you may or may not remember this, but my wife from Cleveland as well. Yesterday with my eight and 10 year old girl, and I don't know if this was happened, happened to be because I was going to talk to you today, but the Browns game was on TV here locally. And every time my wife started to walk up the stairs, I would turn it off. And she's not a huge football fan, but she has a Cleveland fan. And the just, you know, her heart rate goes up thinking about. those Browns games. I don't know if I have advice, Chad. I thought they were on a trajectory. I was actually surprised to see the record yesterday. It's best for her health and your health if you turn it off. I think that's the best advice that you could give. Just take a little time out. But I think tying that back to the truth. to interrupt, but props to your dad for his loyalty and his bet yesterday. Because social media was definitely feeding me your feed. I see his loyalty on that. He's committed to that win every week. Yeah, for everybody listening, I posted on Instagram and my dad and I talk and my mom every Sunday morning or Sunday afternoon, depending on when the Browns play. I figure out, and I figured before the game was a better time to talk to them yesterday. And he came in fully loyal, like optimistic as all hell, which is crazy after 60 some odd years of being a Browns fan for him. And I go, no, it's 3013 Washington. They can't contain it. And he's, no way, no way. Browns are pulling it out, but we see who is the better prognosticator. Gotta love that. Gotta love that. I mean that to me is like the full on English stupidity. Like England's gonna win the World Cup every time we play. Like you can't convince me other way. Not a chance. In reality I know what's gonna happen. But dude, something there. I mean they're talking about the fan base. That's exactly what it is, right? Win, lose, tie, whatever. Like I'm sitting my butt on that seat every single week just to see the outcome. And it's that exhilaration, right? If it's never gonna happen, then it happens. I'm on cloud nine and then when it's supposed to happen, it's probably gonna take a shit, then we're in trouble. Yeah, one loss, sack the manager, trade all the players, and that's the way it works, right? Well, you made a great point about the transparency. was going to ask that about the social media stuff. Like 23 years in the game, like as you said, the normal media was huge, right? The Washington Post and by Amazon, all that kind of stuff. But now like one tweet from a player could explode the locker room. Like just so many variables. Now you have to think about that. You know, 23 years ago, none of us thought about that, right? I don't. MySpace maybe, probably not. And then it's just like within 15 years, it's just exploded. And to your point, now you've got bots reposting stuff. You don't know what's true, what's false. Like how do you deal with that? Or do you just kind of block out as much as you can and kind of just let it be and it's gotta be tough. It is tough. mean, you take in, you have all the tools to listen, do social listening and hear what fans are talking about. And you can see sentiment trends and what works and what doesn't. I mean, the biggest change is obviously the amount of content that we're able to put out. mean, is he talked about years ago. remember actually, Chad, know, Carol Ross was in town the other day and we were talking about our first website that started I think the year after I started and it was, you know, LA Kings dot com was basically like a business card. had eight, eight, eight Kings LA and LA Kings dot com posted on it. But that's it. That's it. It was like a picture. like a billboard. So, you know, none of that existed. And, the the message boards like let's go kings.com started a few years later and people started chatting about the teams and that was social media at that time. know, Twitter and Facebook and MySpace or the Facebook didn't start till, you know, quite a few years later. So it was, you know, you had more beat writers and traditional media covering at that point. So I'm not sure it was significantly. different because I remember there you know the LA Times would cover the stories about the performance of the team and they carried the narrative and it was just more centralized and and but fandom and fandom of sports is the reality of what makes us great and and it's not rational it is not rational and that's what you have to realize and My first job, just like Chad, was selling tickets and I got put on the phone selling tickets and we traded our captain within, I think, the first week that I was on the job. And I didn't have a computer yet, so I decided to pick up the phone with the cord on it and listen to season ticket holders. my biggest realization at that point is their passion is what plays through, whether they're mad. or they just want to talk to somebody. Like it's incredible that they're spending a lot of money to have season tickets to a team and they want to talk to you. I'm a lowly, you know, like entry level employee at that point. And they want to talk to me about the team. And I thought that was really cool actually. And then at the end I'd say, all right, well, let's talk about renewing your tickets. I'd be like, all right, yeah, let's go ahead and get that taken care of. Isn't that the most beautiful thing though in the sports world? Like you put that hat on or you put that badge on or you put that shirt on, whatever, in whatever capacity you're part of that club, people just want to dive in with you straight into the deep end. So what do you think about this? How does the season look? What's the check? And they're just so bored. I love everything about that. As you said, people save up their life savings for tickets for certain games. And just that feeling of... You're giving it all, like the team's gotta give it all for these people. Like, you gotta leave it all out there. Yeah, and then when you win, they're crying in the stands with their moms and their dads. It kind of gives me chills just thinking about it right now. Yeah, their dogs, their kids, it's not rational, but it's why we have jobs. It's why this industry is so great and it's powered by the fans and it's the work that the players put in on an everyday basis, ultimately gives everybody something to cheer about in this business. So it's fun. And then when you get exposed to going overseas and we took the team to Melbourne, Australia last year, we got to take them to an AFL semifinal game with Collinwood and our players hadn't seen it. I hadn't seen anything like that before. But 90,000 people in the cricket grounds in Melbourne and going nuts over a sport we had never really seen before. And you're like, jeez, it's just. It multiplies in the world about different sports and people are passionate about different things and it brings people together in cool moments. Yeah, it really does. It's cool. What do you think about the overseas tours? mean, it was the Jets in London last week and I'm seeing it become more and more popular year over year now. Like the world's getting smaller so these franchises are now taking an, I say advantage, but it's a great brand exposure, new sport, et cetera. Yeah, I'd say international expansion across sports is one of the biggest trends that we're all a part of and we're all seeing. we've done as well with the Kings and the Galaxy for years. And AEG, we're one of the largest sports entertainment companies in the world with facilities all over the world. So we've hosted big events, whether they have us in them or not. In the O2 in London, we host the NBA, NCAA. and basketball, we've, hosted, you know, Kings hockey over there as well. We've had the Kings over in Shanghai and Beijing, you know, the Kings in Melbourne. so, you know, the galaxy, especially in our David Beckham era has played all over the world. So you've seen it kind of come both ways now, Craig, you you started seeing the premier league and, and the international, teams start coming to the U S 10, 15 years, maybe. And then you started seeing the media deals expand, Nobody, those early days of, you know, the big clubs coming over to the U.S., they were just playing games, but there wasn't a media deal yet. Now you have, you know, the Premier League on NBC and on Amazon and people now, I, in my, you know, experience in dealing with soccer in the U.S., you start seeing significantly more fans having their club in the U.S. And that was really the original vision of the MLS is that people would have their club overseas. They'd have their international club that they're their fans of, but they'd also have their local club. You didn't see it happen on the same standard that you have now, but now you definitely have it. It almost feels more mainstream. know, I've friends that Liverpool fans and Manchester fans and Chelsea fans, you know, and it's I really that's a testament to me of of the way that international has expanded in the media, the deals have expanded because when you get up, you're a sports fan at 7 a.m. and there's a game on right away that you can watch. I mean, they're in. They think it's cool. And they didn't think it was cool 10, 15 years ago. it's. it. I mean, I remember when I first came here 17, 18 years ago now, we were struggling to find a channel and generally it was in Spanish because that were the only ones that would, you know, show international games. And now I'm watching NBC every month. They've got more games on in this country than they do in England because of the media rights. And then you have, you know, Chad and I talk about this all the time. The welcome to wreck something would never existed. Never would have seen the day of light, you know, 15 years ago. now all the, all the, ownerships that taking place across the globe, people buying second and third division teams because of the Wrexham thing. But then the big boys buying Man U and you know, et cetera, over the last 10 years, it's, it's phenomenal. It really is. And then again, the flip side, watching the Jets game yesterday and people inside of Wembley or the new Wembley, when every single show there was Niners fans, there was just actual football fans in the UK. they wanted to go watch a game. really is becoming again, the globe's getting smaller through sports, but now every sport has an opportunity in every country, which is really cool to see. It is. It is. Kelly, as we've talked with other guests about the pressure of the job and the switch to remote work over the past couple of years, you talk about all this fandom, the global pressure, everything that's happening around the world. In the sports industry, you're not really able to do fully remote. You need to be in the office and at the events and working outside of normal business hours. How is that? you pressure Ben for you. How have you viewed the world, you know, now that we're a few years away from that odd 2020-2021 season? you know, I was thinking a lot about this question and it hasn't been easy just to be fully transparent. You know, when you're, your workforce has changed and you, recruiting has changed and people have changed and kind of that I'd say the workforce split, right? There was a group of people that wanted, they're like, this is cool. I want to stay remote. And you know, those people have moved on and there's others that are like, don't want anything to do with remote. They, they, you know, that or at least a certain amount of presence in person is what drives them as a human. And that's when you realize that everybody is different and you need to be adaptive to that and flexible to that. you know, it seems trivial to say it, but utilizing tools like we're using today, you know, whether it's Teams or Zoom or, you know, content creation around podcasts like we're doing today is the adaption that we've had to make. And it's really kind of cool to see that we can create special moments like this where we can have this conversation by doing these things. We have quite a few meetings and Chad, you were around AEG for a long time. We were always kind of in different spots, right? Because we're growing, expanding as a company. we're on conference calls, 8, 800 conference calls and people would be in one building at LA Live and at Staples Center or down in El Segundo. And we're all trying to lead a conference call. kind of adapted to that. So to a certain extent, we were there before just because of the nature of our company. And now it's a little bit different. So we have some people in the conference room, some people on teams at home that day. And you have to be understanding, adaptive, and communicating to the best of your ability. And it's not easy all the time. But like you said, there's a standard you have to set because sports is in person. At some point, you're going to land at that arena. and execute an event. And if you're doing it well, the event's sold out and the reaction's well, and then you have to trust your people. It gets, it gets, you know, edgy at times, because sometimes you're like, need to talk to this person. And then it, you know, you just have to take a deep breath, put yourself in balance for second, and then find a way to execute. What about at home with your wife? You didn't have the kids when you first started 23 years ago and you're going through this and the job is what it is and you've executed at a high level. You're there at the events. You're making that work. There's another side of that that's happening at home. There's the soccer games and the dinners. How has that struggle been with you and the family? Yeah, it's again, I'm it's it's not easy because we have so many events that we're at and you know, have expectations to be at those events over time. I've had to lower my expectations and realize that like that game's happening one way or the other and the players are going to be there at one way or the other plan a game. So if I need to take my girls on a camping trip and I'm going to miss a game at home. Like I need to, I need to be okay with that. And I realized in those moments, like my girls love that more than anything else. So you have to prioritize those things. So for me, standardizing, you know, my family's health, my, my, personal health and doing things like, you know, making sure I prioritize walking my girls to school, you know, a couple of days a week. And I, and, also realizing that's a reset for me and my wife and I can walk back from school together and catch up for 30 minutes on that walk and talk about things for the week. Those are the little things to me that have made it, you know, brought the balance. then when I'm not having events, going and picking up my girls, they're both in competitive gymnastics. And, and, you know, my wife's at the gym with, the girls and, and, you know, I'm picking up one, bringing them home. You know, it seems like. It's we'd call it the struggle bubble, or as you guys would say, right. But, you know, it's to me, those are the balance things like prioritizing that and realizing that that drive home for 15 minutes with my youngest daughter, where she wants to tell me about her day. Like that's those are important moments that you have to take in and prioritizing, you know, get on that bike and go into dinner on Sundays and realizing that they they love that. So. It's balancing it all and realizing that those things are really important and the moment you think that they're not important or your job is more important, long-term that's gonna have a mental effect on you. Yeah, I'm glad you said that because we had a sales leader on here said the same thing. Like the deal is still going to be there when you get back. It's it's even going to win. It's going to complete. And I say it in soccer all the time, right? The game's the game. It will take care of itself. Right. So it's still going to be there. I've done it for long as I know my prep is going to happen either way. So now I've got to be in the flow state, which is my mental space, time with my kids, my family, whatever, to make sure that I've been still in motion, even if I'm not physically present. So it's really cool to hear that it's in every form, right? From where you are in the sports industry to a sales leader, to picking up the phone, trying to sell tickets when we didn't have the internet. It's the same thing, right? Just different stages. Absolutely. want to talk about gymnastics for a second though, because that's a whole different crazy parent environment. How have you approached being a spectator at, are they in meets? Are they at the age where they're doing those types of things? Or is it just individual classes? Yeah, our 10 year old was in meets last year in level three and she did great. I mean, she got, I'm like, I'll brag on her for a second. You got first on four meets. She got first place all around in three out of four meets last year and got second in the state and a couple of things and first in the state. know, which was cool. Like we had no idea it was coming Chad. Like we, we went to like my gym to make sure that they're tumbling safely. And the next thing you know, like we got sucked into this sport that really I was terrified. My wife was terrified to be around. But it's a really cool sport. They, they move them in such like steps at a time that especially at the age they're in right now, it's a lot safer than, than it looks like, especially when they get to level nine and 10, you see all those crazy things, flips and turns going on. We love it. We go to the same spot three to four days a week. There's no like, what field am I going to? You know, I'm going to the same gym. three to four days a week. The practices are longer, three, three and a half hours, but it's pretty standard to any sort of competitive sport. And then the meets are four or five times a year for four hours, and then I'm done. I don't have a tournament that starts on Friday or Thursday that I'm traveling to. If they lose, they're playing on Friday in Riverside, and if they win, they're gonna be playing on Saturday in Ontario. That's not in our sport. It's one stop for four hours. have to brag, Kelly. That's my bias as to like, realized like that actually is pretty cool. It's one and done versus all you other soccer parents and stuff that I watched. I'm like, man, that, that, that's a, that looks great. That looks great. Whatever makes it happen. enjoy going to the hockey games? They do. They love it. I mean, they've, they've come since they were babies, right? Going to, you know, Kings games and galaxy games. Like they absolutely love it. They're incredibly spoiled with the access. Obviously they have being around all the parents that have worked here, whatever level they've been at for years. Like we talk about like how spoiled our kids are to be in, you know, special seats and suites and around the mascots and you know, all those things. but yeah, good old Bailey. They love. They love them and they love the events and they're huge fans, so it's cool to see. Did you grow up, you grew up playing hockey? What were the sports that you were involved with as a kid? Yeah, I grew up playing hockey until I was 18 in Minnesota. So in the state of hockey and played through high school at a pretty good level. It's not why I'm in hockey today. It just happened to be, you know, the job opportunity. And then I grew up playing baseball and played baseball in college and also played, you know, some soccer and football and stuff when I was a kid. But, I was always in and around sports and, know, when I went to college, I It was just kind of those early days of where the business of sports was getting adapted into the business schools and being communicated as a potential major. I didn't actually major in sports business, but it became a conversation around something that actually happens where you're like, it's not just a general manager and a coach running a team. There's a whole other thing. Sports Business Journal started and you started studying the business and that's how I landed in there. Speaking of sports business journal, they come out with the top 40 under 40, which I believe, were you on that list? What about the 50 under 50? Do you tail off at the end? Is that what happens? They don't have a 50 under 50. have things like legacies and yeah, I don't think I'll make it there, Chad. Let's just say you just get old after you're 40 years old and then they're like, whatever, they can retire. Yeah, they have the 30 under 30 and like, they're looking more for the up and comers rather than the old codgers like myself. Yeah. a successful organization and one of the largest major metros in the United States or the world. the, the question on the, and the sports is interesting because we have our own kids that you, you want to see them play the sports that you played because it's just easier. You have an expertise for me in baseball, football, Craig and soccer, but seeing it through your kids eyes is just had been completely different. You can't force them to like. any sport, it's just got to follow the passion that they have. With you and Andrea, has that been consistent? Neither of you are in gymnastics, but is there a level of desire to see them experimenting with hockey or softball, baseball? You know, early on I was, I was excited to see them. They were doing, they wanted to skate and they were doing the learn to skate programs here and they, you know, marketing work. The, the lions was our girls program and they they talked a lot about being a lion. was like, that's kind of cool. but as things, they got into it and they kind of drifted away from, from it. And we just saw them, you know, being more interested in soccer initially because their friends were more in soccer kind of drifts towards like. where they're going to have the most fun and where they have connection to people. then, gymnastics just kind of came out of nowhere. And then they got on a team, and then their connection to the friends that are on their team is what's most important. Being a part of a team is what Andrea and I wanted them to do the most. Andrea was a swimmer and track and field and different, more individual type. sports, but still on a team. And, you know, I was more of kind of the team sport type of person. That's really what we wanted most out of our kids is to be in an activity that they have to commit to, you know, make sure that they're busy. And I've always set the standard for them that be a great teammate is the one thing that we want them to be on a day to day basis, whether it's in the family or with your classmates, like be a great teammate is a standard that you know we expect out of them. Like look out for your friends, look out for your sister, look out for your teammates and help support them. Yeah, I love gym as well. My kids do dance and it's such, those three or four hours a night. I'm like, there's no way my mental capacity could have done that at that age. There's not a chance. I would have been space cadet in all over the place. But seeing the kids dialed in for three hours straight is unbelievable to me to watch. They just, and I always say it's kind of a setup for life to a certain degree. Like if you can dial in that hard for that amount of time at this young age. you know, the future is pretty, pretty positive. And to your point, you're an individual in a team sport, which is life as well, right? You've got your own goals, et cetera, but part of family or whatever that is. gym and dance cross pretty, pretty heavily. And it's, I also agree. I sit down in an auditorium for two days straight for eight hours, and then I'm done for another three weeks. So I like that. I don't even have that. have one day for four hours to be clear, which is great. But you're right. I think for good or the bad, youth sports has changed dramatically probably from the time we all grew up. And we probably all were able to grow up playing two or three sports. And that's not the way it works, unfortunately. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. We operate teams. And we have seven rinks that we operate in multiple soccer facilities that we operate around the city of LA. You know, to one and you know, our clubs that are in the leagues are part of the problem too, but it's just the way that the sports have changed and sports specialization I think is not great, but it's ultimately once you get into it, it's kind of a path you kind of get sucked into. And I just want to make sure that my kids are happy and they're really continuing to enjoy it. And our youngest. Who's seven, like we've really pressed her. Like, is this really what you want to do? Because I know she's fallen her big sister more than anything. And so we're continuing to press her and she's really good. She's probably the better athlete of the two. But she's maybe not the best gymnast of the two. So we, we always press her like, is this what you really want to do? And she is always like, yes, yes. And then she works her tail off and it's cool. It's cool to watch. a seven year old. that checking in is so massive though. And it's not even something that, you know, 20 years ago, I mean, our parents didn't really check in. It's like, you're in the sport and there's no quitting. You're in it. But yeah, if they're motivated and passionate about it and you're checking in, it goes a long way because they feel a little bit more secure in what they're doing. They could walk away and they're doing it for the right reasons, which is absolutely massive. When they get to that age, about 12 to 14, I see that changing a little bit. That's where the burnout I'm seeing is coming way earlier nowadays, that you've been darting to one sport so much that you just, you got nothing left or the passion is so strong, they're accelerating and we're going through the phases of now, like when do you start homeschooling? Right, so take it to the next extreme, right? You've specified so much and they're getting to a certain level. Well, now they need to be competing. I go through it. This is a tangent, but I go through this all the time about not going to college and going straight to the pros like we do in Europe, like skipping things to get to the end goal because at the end of the day, your lifespan as a pro finishes at between 33 and 35 if you're lucky. So if you can accelerate that earlier, but I don't know what the consequences are at the same time, right? So it's, we have a lot of conversations about this with the parents. Yeah, and I think it's developing an expectation too. mean, you the galaxy, we have our academy and you know, you, you see the, you know, the kids come into the academy and they have, they have a path. have a clear path with our club where the club can ultimately have their rights and they can get onto the second, you know, the second league team from, you know, the time there's 15, 16. So there's a clear path, whereas, you know, and like the Kings and other sports, like the players have to get drafted. So. You know, we have kids in our AAA and AA programs that are in our ranks that are in the junior Kings, the Lions. They can't get drafted by the Kings. They could, but like we don't own their rights. So, you know, you see more of a conversation. We try to push to our coaches more conversation around what's the goal. Like, do you want to be, you know, playing college? Do you want to play in juniors? Like set a path for yourself. That's a realistic expectation because I can't control whether you're going to play on first line with the National Hockey League team. That's not my job. But you have to set what your team and your goals, expectations are for your family. And you guys see it from a different angle as well because the governing bodies all have their own little ways around this as well. So you really see it. I see it from the soccer side and see it from some other sports, football specifically, like you just can't get drafted at 18. It's just physically you're not there. So you've got to go and do something else in between college, et cetera. And now there's all that finance in the college side of the game. Right. We talked to Thomas about this at Stanford with baseball. It's like, these kids, like I can't blame them. Somebody's offering you two to $500,000 to go to a school. You you come from middle of nowhere, kind of blue collar, you're going to take the money because again, you don't know how long your lifespan is as a pro athlete if you even get there. So that's changed a lot of things as well, which we turn into a sports podcast right now. That's right. We could go down the path of NIL in a second here, but that's not my area of expertise. I'll give you some false narratives. coming months because it's gotten a little out of control. But with the time that we do have left, Kelly, I'm picturing that 22-year-old trying to make a decision to go into the sports world. And it's alluring and you see the franchises that you grew up with or that are in the area of your college. What advice do you have for somebody entering into their business career, into that professional sports career? based on your expertise over the last 23 years. you know, my, my, or the reason I chose to get in sports and originally I wanted to be an engineer like my dad. And, I realized my first year of, you know, freshman calculus at Seton hall that I was not going to be an engineer. so it, it, it, I, I wanted to be in something that I was, I was going to be passionate about, getting up and doing on a day-to-day basis. And for me, you know, being in sales and marketing and building brand around. A sport was what was going to get me up and make me passionate about my job. I've been very fortunate to grow into his very senior level at our organization. I'm very proud of our brand and you know, that's what makes me get up. So if you're 22, 23, and you're trying to get into the business or the business, like find what you're most passionate about, like what's going to get you out of bed and be excited about going to work. And that's where you should follow. And a level of patience is very hard these days, especially when more things are in front of us and more readily available. But for me, patience has always worked out. And more often than not, I see opportunities that are missed by employees because they were impatient for maybe just a year or six months, and it could have worked out. after that. And it's not always perfect. I'm not going to say that things are always perfect for you all the time. There's going to be challenges. There's going to be managers that aren't great. There's going to be employees around you that aren't great. if you do what you're supposed to do and you're passionate about what you do and kind keep your head down and keep going, usually things break through for you based on performance. And it's hard to walk away from things, but sometimes, a lot of times I've seen it where people walk away and then a break could have happened. And that breaks my heart a lot of times to see. Now there's a lot of people that have gone on and have done great things that I'm super proud of as well. So follow your passion is what I'd say is the most important thing to do. Fantastic advice. Kelly, we've really appreciated the conversation and for joining us today. I believe the LA Kings season starts on the 10th of October against Buffalo Sabres. Is that right? That's correct, on the road, the 24th at home. Excellent. Well, we wish you and the entire organization a ton of luck this year. I know all of the Sharks fans listening and let's got us. Yes, I said what I said. First hockey experience in person with the Los Angeles Kings and the organization. I owe a lot of thanks to everything. As I mentioned, you Kelly, Matt, Chris, Carola, the whole crew down there. So please give everybody our best. If you haven't already, please follow us on Instagram, the struggle bubble pod. We are posting more and more content there. including this great episode with Kelly Cheeseman. Kelly, thank you again for joining us. Thank Chad. Thanks, Craig. Pleasure to be a part of it. We'll see everybody next week.